Season of the Sakura vs. Tomb Raider

sakurasan · 2004-03-19T19:42:42

A friend recently passed me his copy of Season of the Sakura, a quirky little semi-erotic game from Japan. The game''s basic premise tracks you through your final year of high-school, where you''ll aim to find yourself, and to get a girlfriend. My initial impression was that the graphics, and the technology powering it, are quite outdated. I''m a programmer, so these things tend to stick out the same way a tired cliche does to a writer I was quite bored, so I clicked my way through it. And realised that, in it''s own right, it''s actually pushing more boundries than generic tech-heavy games like UT2K3, or Tomb Raider X. The game has 10 different endings (partially no doubt to pamper to the pornographic portion of itself), and offers an interesting amount of emotional interaction with the different people you''ll be meeting. In a small way, it''s actually trying to simulate falling in love. With 10 different characters, no less. =) It struck me that it could be fun to make a similar game, with a slightly upgraded engine, and tools to facilitate more dialog-branching and interaction. Are there any manga fan-fic writers out there who''d be interested in doing something like this for fun ?

sakurasan

122

Author

January 30, 2003 08:58 PM

quote:Original post by ahw
With modern technology and something like Visual Basic, or even Director, you could easily surpass the limitations of those old games.
The question is, can you make graphics as good And come up with a good concept.

Well.. my personal drug of choice is C++; getting the engine up is not really a big issue (already have most of the pieces around from a sand-box I build earlier, based around LUA, SDL and a conversation-editor I wrote to test some concepts), more a question of "is there anyone interested in doing the writing and graphics".

I''m not really in the mood to get flamed in the forums for asking though, since this is entirely hobby. So I figured I''d check here if there are serious people who actually have an interest in giving a game like this a stab.

5c

Impossible

134

January 31, 2003 02:24 AM

quote:Original post by sakurasan
So I figured I''d check here if there are serious people who actually have an interest in giving a game like this a stab.

Yep, that''s the major problem with doing a game in this style. Although they are relatively easy to code (compared to a 3D engine or even a 2D action game), the artwork is way over most coder''s heads. It becomes even trickier if you limit yourself to high quality, "authentic" (whatever that means), anime style art, because there aren''t many game artists that can do that and most of the ones that can are already working on something else. Good luck in your search for artists. In my opinion you can get away with pretty bad writing, especially if you have interesting gameplay. So you could probably do all the writing yourself (even if you''re a bad writer.)

AnonymousPosterChild

168

January 31, 2003 12:27 PM

The engine isn''t the main problem. Anyone with even a limited knowledge of c/c++ and any of the basic graphics API''s can make the engine. The problem will lie in the story and artwork.

Also, to sunandshadow''s question, I would find the best kind of non linear to have multiple endings, as to not go through the horridity of the "Paradise Heights" games, and to allow some branching within each plot line.

I suppose the best example I can think of would be "True Love", but allow a bit more individual branching, and maybe some random events.

-------------------------------
This way to the egress
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With love, AnonymousPosterChild

ahw

264

January 31, 2003 03:38 PM

Well, non linearity is not necessarily an indispensable thing, you know.
Just look at Immoral Study, they are awfully linear, and awfully limited in scope, but they stick to their aim and achieve it in quite a nice fashion. Maybe it''s just me being too generous ?

On the other hand, something like the 3 Maids game got me slightly annoyed as I was quite happy with the stats my maids were getting, but it didnt really made a difference (and I''d love to know if you could actually get the secretary...)
which was kinda dissapointing. Replayablity, yes, but does difference in your actions do anything ?

Something like 3 Sisters was also very linear, I thought, but there was enough dramatic tension here and there to make it a very interesting game (not just for the boobies), especially if you compare it to Immoral Study and its one cliffhanger (both episodes do that, actually, but htye do it a bit more in the second episode)

sakurasan : hehe, of course you could use lotsa cool programming languages to get it done; my point is even a graphic design student would be able to code a game like that... it''s exactly a challenge for a coder. *So*, you need GOOD artwork and storyline if you want to get noticed at all. I really doubt that adding a 3D element for instance, would make it any better. But then again, I love manga... must be a French thing I guess...

SnS : I noticed your little comment that those games are pretty similar to japanese RPG. Well, I totally agree, and I certainly think it''s a good thing.
The problem with american style RPG (since they all spawn from D&D, mostly... I *know* Fallout uses GURPS) is that they are way too character centric, whereas if you notice, in japanese RPG you never really see your character, and it''s all about the dialogues. Some will argue that the dialogue are mostly linear, but hey, who cares ! Scripted sequences in FPS like Medal of honour are damn linear too, and yet they make the game absolutely stunning.
Maybe studying the various japanese style RPG out there would be a good exercise ? Something like Dragon Knight 4, for instance. Or even Cobra Island (although it is a bit dated, it''s still quite enjoyable).

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

Impossible

134

January 31, 2003 04:01 PM

There''s nothing wrong with linearity, the problem is a lot of these games aren''t really games at all, they are click through story books. I think what AnonymousPosterChild was saying is the player should have to make some meaningful choices during the course of the game. There should be things like different girls to get and multiple endings. 3 Sisters Story, one of the games that you said was really linear, has all of these things (not sure about Immoral Studies, I think I''ve played it but I don''t remember it.) There should be some kind of game play, whether it''s stat building or puzzles or even rock scissors paper.

Btw, Fallout didn''t use GURPS. It was originally supposed to be a GURPS game (GURPS: Fallout), but Steve Jackson had some kind of disagreement with the developer''s and they lost the liscense. Fallout uses SPECIAL (Strength Perception Endurance Charisma Intelligence Agility Luck, or whatever the stats in Fallout were.) SJ Games is currently working on some kind of GURPS MMORPGs apparently, but these have nothing to do with Fallout (and will be much more closely tied with the GURPS book line.)

sunandshadow

7,435

January 31, 2003 04:34 PM

Okay, so an R-rated non-linear story driven mostly by dialogue choices.
So how many ''gettable'' characters would you want? 8, 10? How old should the characters be? Should the characters be strictly human or more like fairies, catgirls, etc? Does the player get an inventory? Is there any kind of fighting, or sim/strategy, or click-puzzle base to the game, or just lots of dialogue choices?

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

sakurasan

122

Author

January 31, 2003 10:03 PM

quote:Original post by sunandshadow
Okay, so an R-rated non-linear story driven mostly by dialogue choices.
So how many ''gettable'' characters would you want? 8, 10? How old should the characters be? Should the characters be strictly human or more like fairies, catgirls, etc? Does the player get an inventory? Is there any kind of fighting, or sim/strategy, or click-puzzle base to the game, or just lots of dialogue choices?

Okay; just off the top of my head:

Looking at a traditional First-person Hgame, driven mainly by branching dialogs.

8 characters seems enough, maybe with some non-primary bonus characters scattered around.

We may want to go the Season of the Sakura path, where there''s 3 primary characters (the three friends), a bunch of secondary characters (like the Rei clone), that are harder and get less screen-time, and then a couple of bonus-characters to increase the hlevel (like the school-teacher scene).

SnS wants both male and female gettable characters: does this mean that we have both a potential male and a potential female main character, or are we getting into homo-erotic territory ?

By all means mix in cat-girls and faeris, but let''s try to keep it somehow anchored in reality. One way might be to take the classic school-concept and tie it to a fantasy setting ? I''m sure someone out there would love a cat-girl in a plaid school dress.

Looking at 18+ characters (western sensibilites, I suppose

, so that puts them in final year of highschool, right ?

As for gameplay:

I''d love to see Inventory management and mini-games. It could be amusing to code a basic character sim in there (where every day can be broken into 4 sessions + the freeform afternoon), and run additional dialog-branches dependent on your character''s stats (Int, Str, Charisma ? Or back to the less classical things a school student might worry about (Grades, Sex-appeal, etc) ?

As for mini-games, I would love to see little interludes with other games, both to drive your stats (see previous paragraph), and also to unlock additional sections (so there could, for example, be an option to play strip-poker with one of the characters halfway through the game). What I''ve coded up so far makes that quite easy to implement, so it would be nice to see it utilized.

I''m not personally looking at a combat branch; feel free to disagree about this, but combat is a LOT of work if you want it done well enough that it''s worth playing, and it also tends to twist the tone of the game (making it more RPG and less story-based).

5C

sunandshadow

7,435

January 31, 2003 10:33 PM

quote:Original post by sakurasan
Okay; just off the top of my head:

Looking at a traditional First-person Hgame, driven mainly by branching dialogs.

8 characters seems enough, maybe with some non-primary bonus characters scattered around.

We may want to go the Season of the Sakura path, where there''s 3 primary characters (the three friends), a bunch of secondary characters (like the Rei clone), that are harder and get less screen-time, and then a couple of bonus-characters to increase the hlevel (like the school-teacher scene).

SnS wants both male and female gettable characters: does this mean that we have both a potential male and a potential female main character, or are we getting into homo-erotic territory ?

I was thinking both, actually. since it''s a first-person pov it''s fairly simple to make the player''s gender be whatever the player says it is at the beginning of the game, and just make all ''gettable'' characters available regardless of the player''s gender. If we wanted a bit more realism we could have alternate npc dialogue based on the pc''s gender, that wouldn''t be difficult.

quote:
By all means mix in cat-girls and faeris, but let''s try to keep it somehow anchored in reality. One way might be to take the classic school-concept and tie it to a fantasy setting ? I''m sure someone out there would love a cat-girl in a plaid school dress.

Looking at 18+ characters (western sensibilites, I suppose , so that puts them in final year of highschool, right ?

How about a military academy or school that teaches magic? That would be more flexible than a regular school I think, and we could have some sexy pics of people practicing hand-to-hand-combat, casting big sparkly spells, etc.

quote:
As for gameplay:

I''d love to see Inventory management and mini-games. It could be amusing to code a basic character sim in there (where every day can be broken into 4 sessions + the freeform afternoon), and run additional dialog-branches dependent on your character''s stats (Int, Str, Charisma ? Or back to the less classical things a school student might worry about (Grades, Sex-appeal, etc) ?

As for mini-games, I would love to see little interludes with other games, both to drive your stats (see previous paragraph), and also to unlock additional sections (so there could, for example, be an option to play strip-poker with one of the characters halfway through the game). What I''ve coded up so far makes that quite easy to implement, so it would be nice to see it utilized.

I''m not personally looking at a combat branch; feel free to disagree about this, but combat is a LOT of work if you want it done well enough that it''s worth playing, and it also tends to twist the tone of the game (making it more RPG and less story-based).

5C

Well I certainly agree that combat is a lot of work to do well. Also it kind of requires a 3-rd person pov and character sprites, unless you wanted to do something like an old Might and Magic or something... bleh. Anyway, I personally thought the True Love style strategic scheduling was more annoying than interesting, but maybe that''s just me. Maybe we could give the character a series of school-assignments or missions (perhaps with various gettable characters as assigned partners or supervisors) and score them on their performance? Or maybe that would also be too hard to program? I dunno, I''m just letting the ideas percolate at this point.

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

sakurasan

122

Author

February 01, 2003 08:37 AM

quote:Original post by ahw
Well, non linearity is not necessarily an indispensable thing, you know.
Just look at Immoral Study, they are awfully linear, and awfully limited in scope, but they stick to their aim and achieve it in quite a nice fashion. Maybe it''s just me being too generous ?
Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

I suspect you''re being too generous

I prefer to actually play a game, not click a movie. That means I expect my actions to have an effect on the way the story moves (beyond an arbitrary yes/no checkbox every 50 clicks). One way to do that is to provide better tools to the designers and writers, to encourage actually working on the dialog, and provide hooks for extending gameplay that are easily accessible.

quote:Original post by ahw
sakurasan : hehe, of course you could use lotsa cool programming languages to get it done; my point is even a graphic design student would be able to code a game like that... it''s exactly a challenge for a coder.

Well.. like most of these things, it''s easy enough to get SOMETHING up and running... The hard part is making a system that''s stable, extensible and flexible.

5cs

sakurasan

122

Author

February 01, 2003 08:48 AM

quote:Original post by sunandshadow

I was thinking both, actually. since it''s a first-person pov it''s fairly simple to make the player''s gender be whatever the player says it is at the beginning of the game, and just make all ''gettable'' characters available regardless of the player''s gender. If we wanted a bit more realism we could have alternate npc dialogue based on the pc''s gender, that wouldn''t be difficult.

The entry isn''t the problem; the alternate dialog IS (it''s referred to as a branch the TREE OF DEATH: an action that automatically doubles the amount of content you have to write

). Just making the characters behave the same whether the player is male or female could be accomplished, though it''d get a bit weird (to say the least

. Suggestions, anyone ?

quote:Original post by sunandshadow

How about a military academy or school that teaches magic? That would be more flexible than a regular school I think, and we could have some sexy pics of people practicing hand-to-hand-combat, casting big sparkly spells, etc.

Sounds cool. How about making it sort-o-like Hogwarts ? So essentially a school for creatures Magically gifted, but parallel to our own timestream ? That way you''d have all the coolness of cat-girls and magic, while you''d still have all the pop-fiction stuff to fall back on ?

quote:Original post by sunandshadow
Anyway, I personally thought the True Love style strategic scheduling was more annoying than interesting, but maybe that''s just me.

Possibly =)

Any other suggestions on this topic ? How can we build in a person Sim (Ala true-love), without the annoying time management aspect.

quote:Original post by sunandshadow
Maybe we could give the character a series of school-assignments or missions (perhaps with various gettable characters as assigned partners or supervisors) and score them on their performance? Or maybe that would also be too hard to program? I dunno, I''m just letting the ideas percolate at this point.

Well.. we could do it from a design point of view: that means the different things are the actual actions the player goes through (story-archs). I''d also look at a system that allows you to build up your stats independantly of the main missions as well (so maybe you can go to the gym and do some form of mini-game that requires hitting a key as fast as possible, which would tie into increasing your STR stat if you do well enough ?). This would allow you to not get stuck with a fixed amount of points to allocate, but rather would reward you for building up your character..

As for items: should it be like a Jap RPG, where you get items by buying them in the shop, or should we look for a system closer to say Monkey Island, where you can pick up items from the screen, and use them in the game later ?

5cs

Season of the Sakura vs. Tomb Raider

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