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The Perfect Fighter.

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I''m so completely fed up with modern fighting games these days. Every single one feels like another Tekken, a game I''ve never liked from the start. Whatever it is about 3D fighting games..I don''t like it. It feels too awkward, too slow, too stale. I can really care less about 360 degree panning camera angles, bump-mapping, real-time lighting and all of those useless dynamics. DOA3, Tekken 4, Virtua Fighter 4..they all look exactly the same to me. The same rehashed characters over and over: the quiet, dark, quasi-evil asian, the enormously tall blonde musclehead, the stupid drunken-boxing style fighter.. I believe the greatest fighting game of all time was Street Fighter II or III. I can''t tell you the number of hours I put into those games in both the Arcades and in my home. Who cares if they''re graphically outdated and pixelated? There is still more depth, call for reflex, timing, and sheer fun than any 3D fighting game yet. 3D just can''t nail it right. Games are relying on complex skeletal animation systems to create more fluid motions in the characters and a multitude of other systems, yet they all seem to goto waste. Nothing can still beat the beauty of sprite animation, as you can see in the amazingly great arcade version of Marvel vs. Capcom 2 . Playing in a 3D fighter just feels so wrong. Moving around seems to be more of a process of tapping the D-pad in a certain direction to make the player bob in a certain direction cautiously. Moves are ridiculously slow. Jumping is practically never incorporated in 3D fighters, and certainly never taken advantage of for complex attacks... Basically, my dream fighting game would be yet another Street Fighter, with some damned good thought put behind the characters and fleshing out their storyline further (the story seemed to completely dissolve away). Since sprite animations would be no problem on newer consoles, the sprites and animations can now be fully anti-aliased and look damned gorgeous, overlayed on a 3D background. The controls would keep to the classic SF intuitive style. I wish developers would take a step back and reconsider what they''re doing to the fighting genre.
TheLGN | consumer media with a passion - Senior Editor, Moderator
swift URL | browse my bookmarks [server may not always be on]
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I completely agree.

Whereas I would extend the 3D frustration to RTS games. StarCraft, Red Alert or Warcraft II where a great many times more fun to play than Dark Reign or Ground Control...

Designers should really start to realize that graphics, or rather, 3D isn''t everything. I''d rather had played a 2D Warcraft III with giant cities and sieges involving hundreds of units than a fully 3D Warcraft III with very low unit and building capacities...

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I for one do NOT agree. Yes many fighters of today are too slow (especially the ones where you can hit somebody a hundred times before they actually hit the ground which is one of the worst features ever)

I played DOA 2 and it wasn''t the dynamic breast movement or the graphics that made me enjoy it, because I don''t mind graphics being bad or good in games that I play.

However it has a great system of fend of attacks and respond rather than blocking which for some reason stops every type of attack.

Stepping aside rather than blatant blocking is one of the beautiful features of 3D fighting games, if implemented well.

Also studying martial arts myself, I never felt much for jump attacks being one of the best ways to attack. Jumping attacks should be devastating when performed well, but also leave the jumper extremely vulnurable.

And to fivefootfreak:

Warcraft III was intended to be like a RPG party running around the map being more important than the cities or sieges. They succeeded pretty well. Although the cities in the end make the difference, most of the battle takes place outside cities.

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--------------------------------
"........Basically, my dream fighting game would be yet another Street Fighter, with some damned good thought put behind the characters and fleshing out their storyline further (the story seemed to completely dissolve away). Since sprite animations would be no problem on newer consoles, the sprites and animations can now be fully anti-aliased and look damned gorgeous, overlayed on a 3D background. The controls would keep to the classic SF intuitive style."
--------------------------------

Er, Capcom Vs SNK 2 anyone?



[edited by - dc256x on February 1, 2003 9:02:10 AM]

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I don''t agree either. I liked how the 3d world allowed me to sidestep attacks. I played one of my best friends a little while ago (we actually met at an arcade of all places) and he had recently gotten Virtua Fighter4. I haven''t played a fighting game in ages, so he was seriously kicking my butt with his favorite character. However, I soon learned to deal with his tactics by sidestepping and using a counter or a throw. And once I did that, despite him literally having (in his own words_ a thousand hours of play time to his advantage, I was able to make it a 50/50 contest in about an hour of playing.

Let me tell you, I could never beat him at certain 2d games (Samurai Showdown comes to mind). However, because I was able to add the element of 3d positioning that he wasn''t as good at, I could level the playing field.

I think the problems facing fighting games isn''t the look or feel, but like you said, the same contrived characters over and over. I actually liked the concept of Bushido Blade, and wished they would implement more of that style of gameplay. But I disagree that there is something inherently wrong with 3d or that 2d is naturally superior. I think the nostalgia of 2d games lies in their greater diversity (ahhhh, I miss World Heroes and Samurai Showdown).

The thing that designers should remember is that they shouldn''t add 3d just for the sake of 3d or solely to make it better looking. It needs to add something to the plate (like terrain elevation or sidestepping) that adds to the gameplay. Otherwise it''s a gimmick. And gimmicks in and of themselves are ok, as long as it doesn''t detract from the rest of the game.

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I enjoy both types of fighters, but 2D ones more. I am a serious SF fan, and possibly the best fighter on newer platforms is Capcom vs. SNK 2. 2D, and unashamedly so. It rocks.

Now, I''ve had plenty of quality time with 3D fighters as well, and they''re also pretty good. Tekken isn''t really my bag (I''ll play it, though, and have mastered juggles for my own protection), but DOA2 was alright. Virtua Fighter is just bleh.

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It would be interesting to see a fighting game like this with an interactive story though... like a monk on a campaign to find the ancient scrolls & his decisions on finding it along the way. But it would probably just come down to beat everybody in combat in fighters... oh well.

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Ah yes, yet another thread about the inherent superiorty of 2D games over 3D ones. It even has the ever present "why don''t they make games like that any more" complaint when games in the exact same style you''re asking for have been recently released (Capcom vs. SNK 2, Guilty Gear XX, etc.) Will people ever get tired of posting these threads? This is a game design forum, not a "they should make games like this" forum. If you want a game in a particular style, either play the old ones, play the new ones, or make it yourself. If you have some comments on how to make games that have the feel of the old titles with some kind of spin then share them, but if you just want to complain about how much 3D sucks, please don''t post.

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quote:
Original post by vtwin
Impossible: Go away.


Why? Did I say something horribly wrong and offensive? I don''t think 3D sucks, a game of any genre can be 3D and be fun or 2D and be fun, in some cases there isn''t much of a difference besides the way the game is rendered. I understand that you don''t like 3D fighters, but I don''t think coming here and complaining about it will help you. Pick up Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO or Guilty Gear XX and be happy .

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Because I''m really complaining? I''m not bashing all 3D games in general; in fact, I perfer 3D over 2D 99.9% of the time. I''m simply expressing my opinion toward 3D fighters and how I feel they''re inferior to most 2D fighters.

You don''t like my opinion? Go elsewhere, or add to the thread in other ways, such as listing 3D fighters you feel can blow away 2D ones. You''re not cool because you can attack a thread, buddy.


TheLGN | consumer media with a passion - Senior Editor, Moderator
swift URL | browse my bookmarks [server may not always be on]
SotteD | Info/download

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I''m not trying to be cool or attack a thread. This is my opinion. The same way you are feed up with 3D fighters and don''t like them I am annoyed with people that say a game is bad because it''s 3D, or more fun because it''s 2D.

If you want an example of a 3D fighter that, imo, felt like a 2D fighter, then check out Capcom''s Rival Schools. It''s very similar to the vs. games in terms of gameplay and has 3D characters and backgrounds (although the fighting is resisted to a plane.)

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I''m not saying the game is bad because it''s 3D. I''m saying that most 3D fighters have been bad. You''re looking at my thoughts the wrong way.

I can list a number of ways I think 3D fighters can improve, but it''ll have to wait until tomorrow. Futurama is on.


TheLGN | consumer media with a passion - Senior Editor, Moderator
swift URL | browse my bookmarks [server may not always be on]
SotteD | Info/download

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vtwin-
The way you came across it does sound like you feel that 3d games are inherently inferior to 2d games. You say things in general like:

"3D just can''t nail it right"
"Playing in a 3D fighter just feels so wrong."

That make it seem like 3d games can''t do the same things 2d games can. In fact, there''s no reason that every feature in 2d games can be included in 3d games. Indeed, a 2d game is just a subset of a 3d game.

Like I said before, I don''t think it''s so much that there''s anything wrong with 3d games right now (other than like you said having the same character types over and over). I personally like the fact that there aren''t anime-like jumping attacks and that most of the modern 3d fighting games are more "reality" based (very few fireball attacks, stretching arms or leaping 30'' across the screen with double taps that virtually made you fly). I think you like those elements because they are more anime-like, whereas the newer style games are more like watching a well choreagraphed martial arts movie (without wirework). So I think your argument is based more off of stylistic differences rather than 3d game design characteristics.

Being a longtime martial arts student and martial arts movie fanatic (at last count I had over 70 martial arts movies, including every Jet Li and Donnie Yen movie, and almost all of Jackie''s movies)) I definitely prefer the more realistic stylistic design of modern 3d fighting games compared to the older 2d era games. In fact, I wish there were no disappearing Ninja characters that could catapult you 30'' into the air into a smashing piledriver (one of the few anime-like moves that are still rampant in a lot of 3d fighting games).

I also agree with the poster who said it''d be cool if there was a cool story element again. In that sense, I''ll agree that 2d games had cooler character backgrounds for the most part.

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I find that everyone''s reflection on the past tends to drop the boring parts. Any perception one has as to whether more of one or the other tends to be crap more often is easily explained away by good things becoming harder to find or crap getting more advertising. That''s why I tend to disregard anyone''s opinion on the matter.

As for storylines in fighting games, some really simple stuff would go a long way. Just give me a cinematic between each fight or two, and I''ll say you''ve got a story. Not particularly interactive, but that''s not important to me. Better than that would be to allow me to choose my next opponent. Let''s say I''m beating up the leaders of a mob in order to discover the location of, let''s say, my character''s sister. The order in which I fight them could have a significant effect on the story. (if he goes for the badass assassin, he won''t get the information, but he''ll really intimidate the others) Scaling up the opponents'' abilities or intelligence to provide a continuous challenge (with perhaps some bumps) isn''t really difficult.

I actually prefer the crazy anime style fights (didn''t like Street Fighter because there are too few options -- jump attack, walk forward & attack, long range attack, wait for them to come to you; maybe I just didn''t play it enough), but the ones where special moves are really special are best (really, the only fighting game I still like is Gundam Wing: Endless Duel(superfamicom) -- the fights really look choreographed, and many look just like they do on the show -- best part is that you''re not safe anywhere; no matter where you are, an attack can still surprise you so you have to keep fighting until it''s over)

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You people are FOOLS see ??

No more fighters should ever be made.

This is the best so why bother ??

http://www.bhlegend.com/php/show.php3?game=796

You kick old people and other innocent people...Cool.

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i generaly prefer 2D fighting games over 3D ones but that doesnt mean 3D ones r that bad street fighter EX was good it self and Soul Calibur was one of the best fighting exprince ive ever seen requiers timing skill and fast action

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Here''s my opinion. I like fighting games that are really fast. Whether they''re 2D or 3D, however, most of the 2D I''ve went back and played seem slow compared to most 3D fighters. The exception to this being Marvel vs. Capcom 2 which if you use fast chars can because a heck a fast paced game, whereas SF series and MK series seem slow.

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I loved playing Tekken. There was a wide range of attacks and strategies, it was well balanced, easy-to-learn and difficult-to-master, had a lot of stuff to find, had a good camera that tracked the action well, diversity, decent AI opponents.....

********


A Problem Worthy of Attack
Proves It''s Worth by Fighting Back

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+++++WARNING! PERSONAL OPINION!++++++++++
Do not read if easily offended by different opinions
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The only fighting game I''ve ever really got into was One Must Fall 2097 on the PC - while I admit I''ve tended to avoid the genre generally, I''ve never been sufficiently impressed by the few others I''ve played (several incarnations of Street Fighter and Tekken spring to mind) to want to play them again. Oh, and I tend to win about 60% of matches when I do play, so it''s not just sour grapes.

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I also must disagree. I love Tekken and the DoA series. the 3D dimensions adds for a little more depth. Are they coming from the left or the right? Should I sidestep reverse...etc... The only gripe I really have is the pace. Matchs seem not always slow but definatly stiff. It seems many 3D Translations have control issues where everything isn''t as fluid as Street Fighter is. If they can nail the fluidity then I think you''d re-think your conclusion about the whole genre.

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I must definitely agree with PSWind about a lack of fluidity in many 3D fighters although a lot of this may spring from lack of experience. Personally I found combos to normally be easier to do in 2Ds then 3Ds, again probably from lack of practice. I think it is an issue though.

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I liked the system in Kengo II, if anyone''s familiar with it. It was all sword work, but had a fun combo-design feature that let you build a style for your little guy, and you could block, dodge or "parry", which was really a quick grapple and disengage, which gave the game a real paper/rock/scissors feel that I enjoyed, because your muscle memory worked against you if you had a savvy opponent. Fun stuff.

There was also a skill/XP system that was very good, but not altogether necessary to the game.

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Hey again, thread looks kinda dead but I had to post this. Over the weekend I played Soul Caliber 2 at the arcade, and let me tell you. That was one of the best fighters I''ve ever played. Just so you know it''s fully 3D. Camera does not get in the way, it is more fluid then any 2D or 3D fighter I''ve played before. Plus it''s not that hard to learn. Combos are also relatively easy to find once you understand what the buttons do. Sidestepping is also integrated in such a way that it doesn''t mess with your head. I encourage everyone whos posted an opinion in this thread to try it and give their feedback on it in relation to the topic.

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