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Alternative EXP Systems?

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Aside from the *standard* Murder-Based Experience system (which is not on trial here) what are the neatest Advancement systems you guys (and gals) have seen? For instance: Suikoden (PS) Had a system where there were 1000 exp to the next level, and every time you killed a certain kind of opponant, they gave you like half as much exp. Pretty soon, it wasn''t worth your while to fight that creature at all, so you had to move on. This was cool because it cut down on ten-digit exp scores, and you spent less time leveling, cause you didn''t really need to (once you knew how the system worked...) Also, it reflected that you really don''t get THAT much better at something once you''ve already done it. Anyone see anything else cool, or cooler? It doesn''t need to use exp, or levels...

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I haven''t come across a great system yet but this is My opinion on a good system...

A good system is where you gain experience for everytime that you do something, but it is like stored in a float or something, and then the further you go up say you are on level x, then any experience that you get is divided by the x value so the better you are at something the quicker that you slow down the gains.

Becasue as a newbie to something you would be gaining it faster than an experienced person ebcause there would be more knowledge for you to gain and more knowledge that is ready, books etc. But for a master to improve then they''ll have to work patiently at this, trialing things and experimenting a bit in order to improve their current skill.

Sortof like the UO system but not actually based on values that the player can see, sortof like they have to use the skills to find out how good they are etc. Therefore players would have to test themselves in various skills to find out how good they are at certain tasks etc. and of course they would atrophy...

Just my usual ramblings, just like my teacher said



Dæmin
(Dominik Grabiec)
sdgrab@eisa.net.au

CyberPunk RPG
http://www.eisa.net.au/~sdgrab/index.html

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I thought Betrayal at Krondor''s was an okay system (though it had its implementation flaws, like the bug at the well where you could get 100% strength). It had a bunch of skills to choose from (0 to 100%), and you could highlight a few that you were "training" in. The more categories you trained in, the less skill you obtained when you gained in that category. Of course, you would only gain experience in the skill categories if you were performing that skill (Only gain barding skill while playing the lute, etc.).

As I said, though, it was not perfect. You could switch training skills at will without penalty, so just before playing at an inn, you would turn on Owyn''s Barding skill, then turn it off afterwards. It was a linear relationship, as well, meaning he gained Barding skill just as quickly when he was beginning as when he was nearly a master.

I would do (and am doing) things a little differently. There a several basic classes, like warrior, wizard, priest (and in reference to the related post a small way below, you can play as orcs or demons) - you know, the standard stuff (so shoot me ).

Each class advances a little differently. Fighters gain experience through murder, but with a limit similar to Suikoden''s, that is, progressively lower amounts of XP for each monster killed. Also, they advance continually on a skill scale (Like they gain in their Murdering With Swords skill if they Murder something with a Sword).

Wizards gain very little skill through Murder. Instead, they get Learning Points when they cast spells. They have a separate Knowledge level for each spell, and then general skills in Weapon-Wielding (that''s only one category for them, while it''s five or more for Warriors) and Spell Proficiency. When they gain LP from casting spells and Murder, a small portion is put in the Wizard''s General Skill Pool. (Almost finished!) Now, when the wizard is in town, they can go to a trainer and cash in their General Skill Points toward Weapon Wielding or Spell Proficiency. Phew! That''s complex!

Priests do not, in general, wield weapons, unless it''s a Perditious Priest (PP for short ). Righteous Priests gain little to nothing from Murder, depending on the god, instead, they gain from general righteousness (generally scripted actions in the game, but if you run on their turn in battle, or heal poisoned monsters, you gain a little), or casting feel-good spells.

Perditious Priests are pretty much the opposite (keep in mind, though I forgot to write it above, that every class has an evil counterpart. It''s epitomized in the Priest class, however). They gain points for Murder, Unrighteousness, so on and so forth.

There are a lot of multipliers used when determining points gained, like the Priest''s alignment, their god, so forth.
When they gain, though, it''s in a different manner. In battle, they gain Cleric Points, which are the Priest''s version of Mana. To gain new spells and advance in skills, they must pray to their god. When they do this, my "Artificial Intelligences" for the gods determine exactly what they gain, dpending on numerous factors.

Of course, this system is going to be incredibly hard to balance, since so many factors are weighted, but I think that''s the fun part about writing RPGs!

Phew! I probably forgot almost everything, but oh well.

Trigon

I like food.

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hows this for a novel idea: instead of handing out generic experience points (which have no intuitive meaning), why not let the players character grow through repetition and practice, like in reality.
hmmm, a novel concept...
anyways, for an example, if some casts lots of spells to kill things, they shouldn't get exp points, they should get better at spell casting and what ever goes with that. if someone chooses to fight their way through a game, then their strength and related stats should advance accordingly. This could also work in reverse, with a kind of simulated atrophy. if a player doesn't do something for a long time, like cast a huge spell, then five months later when the decide to again, they should struggle with it, not cast it with ease. also, if a player has been fighting with maces and morning stars all game, they should not be able to pick up and staff and wield it with equal skill.

<(o)>

Edited by - aDasTRa on May 17, 2000 12:41:27 AM

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I''m playing RPG since years, and I finally made my own rules system.

Here''s how it works.

First their aren''t any class but profiles.
You can supress the profiles if you want that''s not a problem.

Each people have some proficiencies and attributes.

When you use your a proficiency succesfully you get 1 point, when you failed you get 2 points.
You can only increase proficiencies you have used since the last XP distribution.
You can distribute your XPs between your proficiencies, respecting the above points benefits. 10%Xp can be distributed where you want, including non used proficinecies, or stored for later use.

The higher your proficiency is the harder it is to upgrade it.

You must spend Xp points equals to the level you want to have, you can''t go up more than one point at a time.
I mean if your proficiency is 5 you must go to 6 before going to 7.

Xps are ''lost''. In fact they''ve been spend to upgrade you character.

Depending on the proficency, you''ve got a ''difficulty to learn'' number which is a multiplier to the cost.
(You''ve got a 2 in gun proficiency, it has a diffculty of 2, you must spend 3(next level)*2(difficulty) = 6 points to have your proficiency @ 3)

Attributes can be enhanced to at a cost of 10 to 20 times higher than a difficulty one proficiency.

If you wanted to use profile, proficiencies are classed in groups, and each group have a different difficulty number for each profile.

example : warrior proficiencies : sword. warrior multiplier: 1, wizard multiplier: 3...

Of course you continue to use proficiencies multiplier.
So a wizard willing to use a shuriken must pay : 1(base level)*3(profile multiplier)*2(proficiency multiplier) = 6 for a proficiency shuiken @ 1.

Notice that I use this system in tabletop RPG and in my upcoming 3d CRPG.

Tell me if you don''t understand something.


-* Sounds, music and story makes the difference between good and great games *-

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I personally like Shadowrun''s system, where you get a few minor experience(karma) points after every adventure(run).
Then it get incrementally harder to raise your attributes as they get larger. That way its unlike goddamn D&D where you go out and kill 500,000 goblins and get exp for it. This way you get exp for actually finishing a job/quest.


-Run_The_Shadows
-Run_The_Shadows@excite.com

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The shadowrun system does have it´s advantages, but has nothing to do with the effects of training and experience. Furthermore it is not objective, your GM decides if you did good or not.

I´d use something like adastra proposed, but without the decrease in skill. I guess you would just spend too much time keeping your skills where they are (and how often do you need your biggo-ball-of-fire? where can you practise it?)
How about presetting some of the characters proficiencies? Like selecting a few areas (or general traits) in which you char learns fast, and some at which you suck (like an aptitude/deficiency system).

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Humm.. interesting question

I think the exp overall is important to a small level.. but shouldn''t give an overall ruling to your advancement. In D&D, exp was used to show the ammount of "stuff" you''d learned. You picked skills and such upon leveling, and those were granted because you supposedly had learned to "master" those skills in that time. Or at least become profecient with them.

To me, skill-based is important. When you swing a weapon, what do you gain from it? Well.. a lot of things! First, the more you use a weapon, the better you get with THAT weapon. You learn it''s balance, its nuances.. even if you don''t like it you get good at it. It''s like driving a car. If you drive one repeatedly, and you try to drive another.. you will try to drive the new one like the old one! half the time that doesn''t work out well Sure, you know a general "driving" skill, and rules of the road and such.. but you''re never as good as you were with the other unless you practice. This also illustrates that point that other factors play in. Perhaps if you and I had both trained X ammount of time on the same thing, and then we both went to something else.. you might be better at that something because you have more understanding of it in general! Like cars. My girlfriend has driven one car, an auto, pretty much all the years she could drive. I''ve driven about 8 different vehicles (my prelude is my favorite and thus considered my "best" car to use). If she and I were to both try to drive the same car, I''d do much better at it first time.. both in being comfortable and in just knowing how to correct for the way the car rode versus what i''m used to. I''ve got more general car knowledge, which allows me to use new cars with relative profeciency when compared to my favorite car Also, my girlfriend can''t drive a manual very well, yet. I think what hasn''t been accounted for is the comfort factor. People perfer one thing over others. I actually still have my 85 prelude, which got run over by a 4runner and is considered totaled. That''s because I can drive it much better, as i''m more comfortable with it. I do have an 87 prelude which I''m now becoming very good at, but it operates in a much different way.. and because of that, i''m burning out the clutch much faster
So.. taking that in, you can see that people tend to prefer one thing over another.. and when forced to change, they often do worse (with swords, balance is a VERY big aspect to it). AD&D attempted to make this shown by having "non-profeciency penalty". But you could drop your special-made jewel-incrusted longsword and pick up one off a dead goblin and use it just as well! That, is wrong
DragonRealms attempted to fix this by having individual weapon stats, how well balanced it is, it''s weapon class (piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning), and it''s weight. Too few factors there. If you''ve picked up and swung a sword, you know that balance is a key factor. And there''s a lot more to it Either way.. it hasn''t been thought out fully as to how we actually use things. Heck, i''m about 5% profecient at using this keyboard cause i''m used to one that''s split in the middle It''s really slowing my ability to type way down.. hehe Just think about what you normally use versus what you''re forced to use.. and see how much it changes things, break it down into general skill at that item and specific skill with certain types of items. Basically subsets You might be decent with any sword, but awesome with a broadsword. Since longsword is closely related to broadsword, you might be fair at the longswords, instead of just decent
And the more you work individual groupings of skills, the more general skill you gain I''ve got a good ability to drive overall, since i''ve driven anything from a 78 MGB manual to my prelude to a bonneville to a small-sized truck. My overall driving skill is good, meaning I can jump into a random vehicle and know how to drive.. but my abiltity to drive mack trucks or large trucks is probably pretty durn low Sure.. i''d know HOW to drive them, turn the wheel and so forth.. but i wouldn''t do very well And your general experience with vehicles helps you to learn them faster than someone brand-new at it. Also, intelligence helps to learn faster because you know that you can combine what you know about cars and driving in general to this new thing in different ways. Anyone intelligent knows that a big truck will make wide turns because it''s very long or has a long trailer! But how to actually take the turn so that you might best compensate for this new problem.. that''s what takes intelligence to find out And even if you were told "take a wide corner" you''d still have a hard time with it and have to do it slow several times before you got good at it.
There''s also the emotional state of people that games can''t factor in yet. I''m a laid-back person.. so if i try something new, i appraoch it with calm. I know many people who would freak out at having to try something new and different. They''d be worried about things, would they make it, would they do things right in a certain situation. These are normal people.. but games don''t have that because no one wants to be that way So you''ve got perfect people who perfectly learn things when they''re told. The fun would be randomly making them forget a step hehehe. and actually.. i''m working on a system not far off from this.. using the same premise, but not nessicarily making the character "forget" something. It''ll be nice.. hehe.. just wait
Well.. this is long enough, for now. i could go on.. cause there''s so much more that''s needing work!

J

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"For instance: ...and every time you killed a certain kind of opponant..."

Isn''t that just another Exp-For-Murder system?

This might be hard to pull off, but what about something like this...? At every checkpoint in the game (level, boss, puzzle, ??) the members of the party rank each other on who did the best according to some criteria. This could be the best role-playing, best ass-kicking, whatever... it probably depends on what game you''re playing. Exp points are then given out for the rankings.

It could work in certain games I think.

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You could take a profit based approach to discourage the slaughter of low level monsters.

1) Add wear and tear to gear - the more HP you hit for, the quicker the gear wears out - at lower levels, you aren''t hitting that hard.
2) Repair costs are based on the % damage to the weapon times the cost of the weapon.
3) The weaker the monster, the less cash he has on him, so it becomes unprofitable to kill him.
4) Gold = skills. You pay a master to teach you proficiencies at different skill sets - no experience needed, just cash.
5) You get cash for completing quests, but not much for killing monsters. Some killing is necessary, but the adventurer would be more likely to avoid the confrontation if it means he can''t level up due to repair and healing costs.
6) Locallize the healers or charge for mana regeneration. Either way, you still pay to get healed.
7) As with healing, mana cost money, so magic users will think profit as opposed to pleasure while completing a task.
8) Food - your RPG character needs to eat.

Cost vs fun will definitely be a balancing act, but it should be a doable system for you pacifist. I prefer the use it-an-learn-it approach - if you kill something with a weapon, your proficiency increases with just that weapon. Carry a large load and your strength goes up over time - you move slower, you are getting once heck of a workout. Your initial skill sets would be your foundation to build whatever character you want.

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