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felonius

Is this place overrun by newbies?

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I have been reading and writing at this Game Design forum for quite some time now, and I noticed that recently more and more people are totally and utterly newbies that just pop up out of nowhere ask a question like "How do I make a great game and become famous?", or "I have a great idea. I will not tell because it is so great you will steal it, but if you want to program it for my and give me money, please contact me!", or more recently "I want to make a 3D isometric game. What do I do?" and so on endlessly. The world is becoming more and more crowded with gamers and therefore also with people that want to make their own games. Some don''t have clue about how to do it (witness this fact by noticing how Microsoft had to build in Visual Basic support into DirectX 7.0) and just seem to be wasting everybody''s time when there is several good books on the subject for beginners. I was wondering - is this what we want with this forum, or is it supposed to be more serious? Maybe ghowland could moderate it more strictly and keep this kinds or postings out. Am I alone here or does anybody agree with me? Should we work for purity in the game design forum? Jacob Marner

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I don''t want to start a debate about vb vs c++, but VB is a serious language, and can be very useful for game programming (though some more intensive effects such as alpha blending are done better through an assembly dll etc.) So the addition of vb support into dx7 wasn''t just something for newbies; there are quite a few good game programmers that have wanted dx support since version 3!

I think there should be a ''newbie-only'' type forum, where these types of people should be confined to And, a general FAQ list would be nice, covering the stupid questions like "How do I make a game?" and stuff like that

David

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Couldn''t agree more Felonius.

Although we all have been newbies once, I''m getting the feeling that more and more newbies today want to much at start and aren''t really capable of learning things to themselves.

Jaap Suter

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Yah I like the idea of having a newbie corner. With a good faq. Maybe listing the top 20 books to buy and some links to begginer tutorials, etc... That way we wouldn''t have to post to 50 "Where to start programming" questions.

I think that''d be a good idea. I also find sometimes that I''ll get 6 replies to a post and only 1 or 2 are actually any good or even valid.

- Ben

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I thought we already had a FAQ here (''start here...''?).

Maybe you could have all people at the ''initiate'' ranking automatically have their question searched for before the new topic is posted so they are forced to look around for similar questions by other people that have already been answered.


Lack

Christianity, Creation, metric, Dvorak, and BeOS for all!

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It seems the guestion of newbies is coming up more and more on every forum topic, so being a ''newbie'' I figured I''d make some remarks. I totally understand the uselessness of the posts you described and agree that they should not be a part of the forums, but how can you determine when a ''newbie'' is serious and when he/she is not? I am very serious and have been digesting tombs of information and would like to be able to ask questions when and if I need them. Please, don''t exclude me because of the actions of someone else. That is all I ask.

Thank you

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I don't mind seeing a posts here and there about newbie stuff, the thing I hate the most is that some people don't even read your replies sometimes. They continue to add to the same thread saying "someone please reply I really need help, anyone? anyone?"

I once posted an answer to someones question, which was a link to an article on this site that explained exactly what he/she asked, and wouldn't you know it a few hours later there was a reply in that thread saying, "would someone please help... soon?"

I guess what I'm saying is just because someone doesn't post pure code as an answer to a question, it doesn't mean the answer they gave is wrong. You need to look into it if it sounds reasonable.

Edited by - ao on May 20, 2000 8:17:44 PM

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Guest Anonymous Poster
you were a newbi once,dont be so self senterd ,or are you scard of new talint...most probably alot of use whant to get some where and if cornerd off the old will be forgotten and the new will grow ,or should i say you should be onerd people look upto you for help!!im 28 i just found this place not so long ago,i have spent 5 years designing my game ...i would have given up on my art,my exspresion if not for the help of the more exsperianced members..
felonius look at it this way ...if you like ..if not well
you one sad ass hole!!!.....to the rest of you ,come on man some of use do want to learn...

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Even if some of the suggestions made were implemented, like an easy to find faq. Most still wouldn''t read it. The problem with newbies is they want the quick fix. They want to learn it instantly, without taking the time to study the subject matter and resources they already have at hand.

I remember being like this, fortunatly I got over it quickly since there were few good game design sites at the time I started. I ended up having to do it the old fashioned way, books. The internet has brought on an new era of instant gratification, instant music, instant books, instant information in general. As such many newbies want the know how as soon as they get on and decide, "hey, I want to make a game!" and don''t want to take the time to learn all that is needed.

The other problem is that since there is the internet, those that wouldn''t normally have the connections or resources to start learning how to design games are finding those resources, causing a massive flood of newbies.

I know, there is are many exceptions, but this seems to be the general case.

-Omalacon

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DirectX for VB may have a lot to do with it. People have been fooled into thinking they can make Diablo in VB. Without any previous programming experience to boot.

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Hi! It''s Mister Newbie!

I guess I would like to apologize for having offended on some the above counts (Though someone please tell me I''m not that bad!), but we are all newbies at some time in our lives, so there! Hehe.

I think a newbie forum is a great idea. You can keep talking about all the stuff that is way over my head without having to skip over all the crap posts that have "Where to Start?" in the subjects. And I can ask how to do things without worring that my post will be drowned out by all the competitors.

Also, I really admire all the people who sacrifice themselves to answer the stupid questions like that, though in the past few months that I''ve been here, I''ve definitely seen tempers flaring more and more.

And I thank those who answer newbie questions that are actually legitimate and not "Could you make a game from my idea?". Like SiCrane!

I like food.

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Regarding the tempers flaring...I''ve noticed it myself, but how to stop it - I just don''t know. One thing I thought of is maybe it''s because there is such a vast amount of information here and elsewhere that when "stupid questions" are asked, people that have been around for a while get a little tempered. Usually these questions can be answered with a few clicks on the right links.

Dire, you are the majority of newbie in that you go about teaching yourself unless you REALLY get stuck. The newbies that do make these posts are the minority. Another thing is that the age of the board users range anywhere from 10 to 40+. There are alot of egos, alot of cultures, and just an overall lot of people that visit here. It''s one huge melting pot, and that''s what makes things difficult and why people get upset at each other. My best advice to newbies who do happen to get flamed is to a) don''t worry if your post is deleted, it''s because of the flame, and b) just realize that one day, assuming you stick with it, you will no longer be a newbie.

Kevin

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I think the problems is that there is no "I''m a total beginner and have no clue" link on the main gamedev web page. This is something that should be seriously put in by the Gamedev staff. After all, if a newbie comes here, and cant find what he is looking for, he will move onto another web page, and probably totally forget about this, and never come back again. And gamedev doesnt want that, you want to keep people comming back.

I know for myself personally. I could not find such a link, or one close to it. Unfortunately, the gamedev web page is not well laid out in my opinion. Its very difficult to find what you are looking for at a glance. People dont like to have to search every link, especially beginners. They cant easily find what they want, so they turn to the forum. I know I personnally did that myself, and thankfully, a nice guy on the forum game some usefull links to the stuff I wanted, and those links were to stuff on Gamedev.

So, in conclusion, there should be a beginners forum. And a big obvious link on the Gamedev home page "I''m a total beginner and have no clue" and in there, include a list of what beginners should do. What books to buy, what classes to take, and links to articles/tutorials that exist on gamedev that will help them out. I can garrantee it will help alot, and will attract more visitors to the web site. Newbies will say to each other: "Hey, go to gamedev, they have a whole section for guys like us on how to get started"

Possibility

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quote:
Original post by Possibility

I think the problems is that there is no "I''m a total beginner and have no clue" link on the main gamedev web page.

{snip}

So, in conclusion, there should be a beginners forum. And a big obvious link on the Gamedev home page "I''m a total beginner and have no clue" and in there, include a list of what beginners should do. What books to buy, what classes to take, and links to articles/tutorials that exist on gamedev that will help them out. I can garrantee it will help alot, and will attract more visitors to the web site. Newbies will say to each other: "Hey, go to gamedev, they have a whole section for guys like us on how to get started"



Okay, look on every non-forum page on the site. See up at the top, on the left? There''s a link there that says "New? Start Here". It''s been there since the start of the year. It links to a page that lists what new users should do, what articles to read, what books to buy, etc. I.e. exactly what you suggested.

Also, there is a beginners forum. Look at the description for the Lounge.

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How ironic that the post right beneath this one on the recent threads box is titled "Where to start..."

Just a 2 am observation


Etnu

What is a man without goals? A dead man.

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But, what good would a newbies forum be if only newbies went there? Having a separate forum would, IMO, have the same problems we see in the Lounge now. We just have to deal with it as best we can. There will always be people who flame newbies, but there will also be people trying to help them.

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I''d have to agree with possibility here. It was only after reading about the "Start here" link on the messageboards that I noticed the link on the main page.

Now that I''m used to it I really like the main page (especially the 6 recent posts section), but I remember disliking your page because of putting too much information, links, etc. on it at once.

Maybe you should put a huge START HERE IF YOU ARE A NEWBIE link on the splash screen or something.

Although there is a "start here" link on the main page. I''m sure most of the newbies won''t see it at their first visit.

Jaap Suter

____________________________
Mmmm, I''ll have to think of one.

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It''s difficult to make everything easily accessible, but given all the information that is on the site, the main page is IMO designed well. Maybe if it was in a smaller font it wouldn''t appear to be so much, but no use in killing our eyes. Anyways, I''ve always known the New? Start Here link to be difficult to find. We''ll try to find some other way to make it visible, but in the meantime we''ll just have to help people find it.

Kevin

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To Dire,
If you are actually reading books about programming and game design then there is no problem. So long that you try to figure things by yourself before you ask then no problem. I think it is great if we here can help people get better, but some people just do not want to use the time required to build games.

CmndrM,
You say that if we help all newbies there will be no more. Never! Total newbies will appear at a higher rate the more people that playes games. People seem to think that game programming is very easy. I am a graduate student of COmputer Science and is specializing in game development for my Master''s and people seem surprised every time I tell them this. They though that creating games was simple and not something that needed degrees.

To rivit,
As most flames that occur: please consider that you haven''t misunderstood the arguments that you flame about. If you have used 5 years designing a game then you are serious about it and no problem at all, as I said to Dire above. I think though that you should be ashamed of yourself to flame people. Flaming is childish and not something that makes a forum serious.

Jacob Marner

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I think we''re dealing with a slight naming confusion here:
While the starting post talks about being swamped with "newbies", what he''s really getting at is that we''re being swamped by "wannabies".

Some of the people starting out, right here on gamedev, are intelligent, and seriously consider your answer. You can feel they want to learn.
Some other people just post daft things like "Give me the link to the plugin that they used for the Inventory in Diablo".

The difference is between "I''d like to learn", and "I''d like to have". I don''t mind learning, but I HATE people who think they are going to get everything handed to them. I know I''ve myself resorted to one-line posts along the lines of
"Read the bloody main page you weenis".


#pragma DWIM // Do What I Mean!
~ Mad Keith ~

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I think one of the main problems with a newbies forum is that legitimate questions need answering by more experienced people.
How many experienced people will sit in on the newbie forum?
But yeah, I know the whole "I don''t want to learn I want it to be done for me" attitude and it really pisses me off.
Especially when there are so many people taking the time to write tutorials in all and sundry and for these sites (Such as NeHe''s OpenGl tutorial site)

I''d say I''m still a newbie, but I know that you''ll never learn anything if you can''t be bothered to learn it yourself...

Check out my shadows page
and send me some feedback

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