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felonius

Is this place overrun by newbies?

62 posts in this topic

I am completely astonished at everybody''s veiw at the newbie issue. The fact of the matter is that game development is starting to really boom and naturally there are going to be a hell lotta newbies and some serious and others not so serious , and we should help those who are serious about this things , i mean books will teach u how to program , but a book wont tell u if ur fit for game design.
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You''re fit for it if you don''t ask stupid questions like, ''Please tell me how to make a game.''

Note that I am not referring to anyone here, for some really good laughs go over to Planterhalflife''s Wavelength. Then proceed to the coding forum.
For the unitiated, Wavelength is a mod development site for Valve''s Half-Life, a really cool game.

Such posts as ''How do I code a mod?'' are more than frequent there.

Just goes to show, now that people have rope, they just start hanging ''emselves with it.

The_Minister
1C3-D3M0N Interactive
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Hey, two weeks ago i was initiate in the forums.I only knew how to program with BitBlt and that was all.But then i started searcing the web for info,i visited the Microsoft''s DirectX section which has VB tutorials as well and in a week''s time i transfered my game engine from BitBlt to DirectX 7.What i want to say is that it is not bad to be a newbie.It is bad to expect everything to happen like a miracle.
Just search a little.The web is full of info
Voodoo4
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quote:
Original post by TechDoctor

I am completely astonished at everybody''s veiw at the newbie issue. The fact of the matter is that game development is starting to really boom and naturally there are going to be a hell lotta newbies and some serious and others not so serious , and we should help those who are serious about this things , i mean books will teach u how to program , but a book wont tell u if ur fit for game design.



I totally, 100% disagree. The game business has been around for 20 years, and if you were into it, you would know most of the questions wasted on the forums.

I saw a post earlier up the line about "newbies" really translating into "wannbies". I agree that this is probably the most likely situation.

Newbies usually take the time to ask questions about things they have searched around the net for. Wannabies just jump in and say, yo, check out my site will all my kool images (that I ripped from other sites) and my game idea. No idea, no clue, no help.... tempers flare "Why waste my time?"....

I think the problem is basically, " I think I can, so I don''t need all the BS before I start" syndrome. The link at the top for New? Start here only applies to those who think they are not "above" everyone else and can take the time to read and understand the concepts of, hell, just programming, before starting with questions like:

"How do I get my ultra cool warrior loaded in from a 3ds file?" "What do you mean I actually have to code something, there isn''t some code lying around?" "Read an article, I don''t understand them"....

Point being, newbies aren''t really an issue, it is all the hacks who don''t have a clue in the first place.

How do you get around this in an open forum?? You don''t. Although I have seen some ingenious ways of doing it, like having the users, rate the other users. And, yes, there are ways to make sure that it do4esn''t turn into a "slug feast" of people ganging up on others.

You could also rate the topics? That might sway people from actually reading them. Again, just additional stuff to help speed up the time spent looking through six messages of "Why VB is the next killer programming language for games"....

Honestly, I consider myself a newbie after 12 years of programming and 3 in the games industry. I read an article a day, and I still find stuff that I never knew how to do, or different approaches to things. So I have to admit, "newbie" isn''t the nasty word.

I do hope we can all come up with some really good ideas to keep pushing this board along the lines it has been going. It really is an invaluble resource in the game community.

Ok, I blew enough smoke....






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I agree with KHawk in that the site is a major meeting point between different people. As a person who programs all day at work I feel to tired to come home and then spend most of my time programming at home. Thus my game programming progresses slowly. It seems to me, as a casual observer, that the people who start the topics generally are students who have more spare time. I have also noticed that the really good answers come from poeple who know their biscuits, people who I''d guess are programmers professionally, therefore some of the answers are too technical for the general newcomer.

I experience this myself when I dare venture away from the lounge into the more specialised areas of programmer that I''m interested in. For example :- I am fasinated by artificial intelligence. If I have a wonder over to the forum for AI then I''m swamped by technical details that I don''t understand and if I was to ask a question to these "experts" I''d be asking a stupid question. I don''t know any better. I have great difficutly finding articles for new comers on AI. They all seem to focus on one area of AI and I don''t know what aspect really interested me. But I wander from the point.

Another problem as I see it, is that nowadays people are more inclined to want to see results. Alot of learning to program is a case of the chicken and the egg. In DirectX you can set the screen up but you cannot see anything or you can set up the palettes but you have no screen. To get to a stage where something is seen is quite a large step. Once this step is made then people will be greeted with learning even more about refresh rates, blitting, lpitch etc. It never seems to stop so people will want quick fire solutions. Instant gratification. Get rich quick. It''s all the same really. We''re in a odd situation where we can remember the games of the past made by Bob in his bedroom. We think we can do it to. We can''t. in a couple of years when todays younger generation get to around 15 they will have only experienced games programmed by teams with big budgets. Then the newbies will stop in this sense, but we will be debating different stuff, and this will no longer matter.

Twig Meister
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The real problem with people who are just starting programming games is that they dream of a perfect game.
For example someone plays Quake II and he thinks:
"Hmmm...Why shouldn''t i try to make a game like Quake?"
So he focuses on making a game like Quake.
For people who have a programming background this thought would sound very naive.But for this guy who has been all his life a "user" this seems as simple as playing the game.
So when he posts at a forum his first question would be:
"How do i make a game like Quake?".And this of course would sound quite funny(or annoying) to an experienced programmer because of many reasons.
So let me clear up some things:

1)Games like Quake are created from many (and i mean many)professional programmers and artists who work fulltime.
2)So these games require big budgets to pay these professionals,to distribute the game,etc. and this done only by big companies which can afford the money or the risk.
For Quake II only ,2 million dollars were spend and 1 or 2 years before it hits the market.
3)When you start something(not only a game) you should start from the "bottom".You will then have more possibilities to succeed.For example try making a simple windows game,like a solitaire or a minesweeper.Or try some tetris and pac-man which give you real experience.
Bigger projects sometimes never finish.
4)Team up with other people.Cooperation will help you finish a game earlier and will make it better and more optimized.

That''s what i believe someone who just starts programming games should follow.I would never consider myself an experienced programmer so some people more experienced than me may disagree.
Voodoo4
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Yeah I posted a "where to start" message. I spent about three hours trying to figure out what I needed for a compiler. You have to download about 6 different things. And then when I did download them all I couldn''t figure out how to work them. I went to the link on the main page that says "start here" and I couldn''t find an article in there that helped me so I went to the messageboard. Something wrong with that. I belive In a reply to the my own message that I didn''t understand how to use a compiler. I guess you people would rather complain more than anything else.
Some one prove me wrong and tell me where there is an article that will walk you through all the steps from knowing nothing and having nothing to writing your first "Hello World" program!!


And it''s title "Starting C/C++ and Games" not where to start.

Good grief people move on with your life.
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quote:
Original post by foxtrot

Yeah I posted a "where to start" message. I spent about three hours trying to figure out what I needed for a compiler. You have to download about 6 different things. And then when I did download them all I couldn''t figure out how to work them. I went to the link on the main page that says "start here" and I couldn''t find an article in


I think you are getting confused here. This site is called Gamedev.net, not LearnYourCompiler.Com.

It is a matter of specificity. I have noticed, from six years of netting and 12 of BBSing, that people gravitate to one solution to solve problems (ergo why Yahoo has everything from greeting cards to stock quotes to email). People are lazy, and don''t want to look for the right solutions, just the quickest solutions.

This is where the problems begin to creep in, because we now have legitimate game questions mixed with "how do I program" questions.

I realize that you have to start someplace, and in my experience, I learned from day one, making "Hello World" programs, and not full blown isometric RPG games with OGL or DX. There is a major gap (almost like the baby boomers generation) that is beggining to creep in here.

I am not saying don''t try, or it is impossible if you have no expereience, just, you should know the limitations you have and look for the best solutions for them, rather then putting them on a heap that doesn''t really relate to what you are asking.







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I''d rather have other people judging if I''m a newbie or not, but I think I can say I''m not...

I have no problems with newbies. I also was a newbie once, like everybody else! You have to start somewhere. It''s a good thing to respect people who think about the same things. This should be a friendly, respected and intelligent place to be...!

And: If there''s nobody who knows less - there''s nobody who knows more!
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Jus' my opinion but...

What the hell is with all the pseudo-help-wanted posts in the design forum? I AM a newbie and I know not to put that crap in there. Clutter!

Thank you for your time...

Edited by - landfish on May 21, 2000 12:08:09 AM
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Forget newbies corner, experts corner. You''d have to pass a test to gain acces, and no VB crap, pure CPP.
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Doesn''t help the non-coder parts of the forum. I know you guys tend to frown upon people like me, but please, don''t condemn me to the newbie part of the page just ''cause the code doesn''t speak to me! I did study you know... =)

I LOVE this site...
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Okay, there seems to be a problem with the logic in here.
If you post in this forum then it seems to me that,

A) you are a newbie at something, or else you wouldnt need to ask questions in this forum.

B) You know everything, so you are just here to answer the questions of those people that fit description A.

So what''s the problem? The problem is that you are tagging people with a term that you haven''t fully defined. Newbie.
Are the newbies the ones in here asking stupid questions? No. Those are stupid people. Should we have a stupid people forum? No, we should just ignore those posts. Is this a new problem that Felonius has just discovered? No, this has been a problem in every forum since the inception of the internet. Forums are for people who need information. Newbies by definition, are those people. Forums, therefore, are for newbies. If you don''t like this fact, then open up vi, or notepad throw together some HTML and create your own advanced users forum. Or wait, maybe you''re a newbie and don''t know how to do that.
Cmon people, wake up.

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I have noticed that many of the "newbies" on gamedev are actually experienced programmers, just not in the game development field. I myself had no concept of how to do a blit, how 3D math worked, how bsp worked(still lost on that one ), etc. Now I have programmed databases professionally for about a year and a half, I know 5 different programming languages, and yet in the games business, I am still a "newbie". I try to learn, and if I get flamed by someone who thinks that they are so much better than me, I try to come up with some response (or just ignore the immature ones). You can never get rid of all the newbies, that would be like saying "well if we teach everone Calculus, we will never have to teach it to anyone again". People die, people are born.

Etnu

What is a man without goals? A dead man.
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As long as the newbie forum posts showed up on the activetopics page, I, for one, would answer questions put there. I read every thread started on this board that seems like it would be a real question.

Personally, the only times I get narfed are when a) someone seems to completely ignore a post and reposts the question rather than asking the poster to clarify or b) someone whos been on the boards for a long time posts a question that they should seen the answer to before.

Actually add abuse of HTML tags (blink especially) to my list of pet peeves.
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I think that newbies must try to learn a bit more by themselves before asking for help.
Most questions answers are available here, or in som docs (Thinking od DX questions)

I''m unhappy to see questions that can be answered somwhere to be post here.

why newbies didn''t try to find answers by themselves before asking for help, this is something I don''t understand !?

If you don''t think about a problem and just ask for an answer I doubt you''ll be good at anytime...

All IMHO.

-* Sounds, music and story makes the difference between good and great games *-
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I guess there is no way to sort the newbies from the wannabes but how about starting a project, letting everyone add his/her bit and then compiling it all in a kind of "Game devellopers recipe".

I mean, nowadays everything comes with easy-to-use 10 step instructions, why not try and apply this to game design?

Of course, a lot of you are going to get mad at me because game devellopment is never that easy and you can´t just do that and so on ..... but it should be possible to put together a set of guidelines (FAQ, technical advice ....) for your typical beginners first attempt at making a game.

If you look at the graveyard of the unborn games ... Most of them died of lack of planning. I guess every "1st" game that finishes has at least 3 brothers and sisters who didn´t make it. (my own no difference. when you start out, being a player, you go along the lines, this is cool, i wanna do something like it. completely unaware of the important points, like how much planning and time it takes to pull a project through)

What do you think?
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quote:
Original post by Chrono999

Forget newbies corner, experts corner. You''d have to pass a test to gain acces, and no VB crap, pure CPP.



Excuse me? Since when did VB turn into crap? If you want to make your statements with no facts to back it up, please do that somewhere else. Judging from your post, you''d be the first to fail that test.

Second, is the VB questions on Gamedev the problem here? I don''t think so! There are hardly any at all.

God, what is it with all ignorant bastards who think everything they know nothing about is crap?

============================
Daniel Netz, Sentinel Design
"I'm not stupid, I'm from Sweden" - Unknown
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Is bicker among yourselfs the only thing that all you "saints", "zealots" and "dedicated" are truly good at? Or can you maybe dance to?

Edited by - fisk on May 22, 2000 5:32:46 AM
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The attitude towards newbies these days annoys me very much. I was a newbie once, and I would be seriously disheartened if people would slag me off just for asking things those people already know. Sure, I am a newbie in some perspectives such as 3D programming.

If the gamedev staff starts moderating on this, the newbies will post under their newbies section, but because such a huge lot of people don''t like newbies questions - and like slagging them off giving them a "at least I am not as dumb as him" feeling - their questions will never be answered. I trust geoff on this and I don''t think he will take such a hypocrite action. If however I see that some day only non-newbies are allowed in here I will revolt against this, and I will do everything in my power to see this reversed or/and throw as much mud / do as much damage to/at Gamedev as possible. Not that I dislike gamedev in any way, it''s become my favorite place to go for information on game development. If you however dislike reading and even answering newbie questions, go to another site, or start a closed discussion board where you can discuss how good you are to eachother.

Before you misunderstand me :
I define this as Newbies : the people who do not know much about game development but express an interest to learn about it, and are willing to put some time into it. I think every professional game programmer has started this way.

And the wannabies :
The people who think game development is easy and that you can learn it in a week, the people who think that with good tools one can easily make a good game, the ones that want to "make games like Halflife or Quake".

The wannabies maybe can be moderated if you want, Geoff. (where are you anyway?) BUT PLEASE send them a message about it that says what they have done wrong, so that they can learn from their mistakes.
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Mmm. I am getting more and more annoyed at people posting ridiculous questions, like "where can I get an inventory plugin like the one used in Diablo!?!?!?!?!?".

I think this is the type of 'newbie' we're talking about here. Or 'wannabe', as someone more accurately termed them - hell, I'm a newbie, as regards DirectX and OGL, even though I get paid to code during the day.

I made a rather harsh reply to someone the other day, who couldn't understand why replacing variables in the prototype for WinMain with actual values wouldn't work - I'm not proud of it, but I won't be removing it, because that's how I feel (and sorry for using you as an example, if you're reading this, but I haven't made such replies elsewhere).

Someone else said it earlier in this thread - this is a games development site, and yet the forums are being flooded with questions from people who just don't know how to program, and don't want to learn the old-fashioned way.

When I signed up for the forums (not that long ago - probably four or five months), it was because I was gleaning valuable information for myself, and there were people who were genuinely stuck on something.

At the time, I was getting over the oddities and complexities of DirectDraw, and could understand the issues, and moreover, I could help . What a rush!

These days, I find it harder and harder to gather the courage to come and look at what's around - there's a lot of chaff to crawl through, to reach the wheat.

I can't really think of a solution, though. Other than for me to just stop coming here. That's not what I want, but what if everyone (real newbies through gods) stopped coming here, because of the flood of wannabes getting in the way, and generally raising blood-pressure?

Am I making sense? I think I've overdone the caffeine this morning...

TheTwistedOne
http://www.angrycake.com

Edited by - TheTwistedOne on May 22, 2000 6:40:10 AM
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quote:
Original post by Fisk
Is bicker among yourselfs the only thing that all you "saints", "zealots" and "dedicated" are truly good at? Or can you maybe dance to?



This is EXACTLY the kind of stuff that starts to really tick me off, and I''m SURE I''m not the only one.
If this is a so-called "newbie" that are trying so hard to defend themselves ( with reason! ), I''m starting to doubt the validity of defending them.
Sorry Fisk, but I will remember your name, and make a point of NEVER answering a question you ask, ever again. If you cannot treat the regular posters with respect, don''t expect to get any back either.


#pragma DWIM // Do What I Mean!
~ Mad Keith ~
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I believe that everything here has gotten off topic. I do think that there is a split that should be defined "Newbie" and "Wannabe".

Don''t come here expecting to learn how to use a compiler. That is something you ca learn on your own, through the tons of books on the subject as well as the information on the web. People are right this is not "LearnToProgram" this is "GameDev".

A lot of people come here posting ridiculous questions like how to build a "Quake" or "Unreal" engine?!?! Get real, this is ridiculous! If I could code it, I would! But what happened to the serious people, like myself who rather find the answer than ask a million questions and have the answer handed to you! You learn a lot more if you would just search for the answer yourself. The search itself may answer a million questions on a totally different part of programming that you didn''t expect! The knowledge.

I consider myself a newbie in game programming. I have been professionally programming for 3 years now. And I like to dig for the answer myself no matter how long it takes. But asking stupid questions like "How do I compile?", "How do I write a windows applications?", "How do I use DirectX?" Those questions are stupid, because if you where truly determined you can find the answer yourself.

Another point is I also use Visual Basic to program with, also Visual C++, and it''s cool that they put DirectX integration in it, but it still is another layer of translation. It goes from VB->DX translation->DX API, with C you bypass the translation portion, so you do get somewhat faster responses doing certain procedures. But in a couple years everyone will have 1Ghz processors, so the speed of the program really wouldn''t matter anymore =)


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Oh, you shouldn''t be offended by my last post. It appeared more insulting than I intended it to be.

Allright. I too think that newbies are nothing wrong. Everybody was a newbie once and if you are a newbie now then you can''t really help it, so the people here shouldn''t be slagging you off for being a newbie.
However, some posting guidelines would be appreciated.
Also keep in mind that we really have to make a split up between Newbies and Wannabees.
Hopefully if we do it long enough, it will become some sort of standard on the community.

Oh: and if people ask questions like "how do i make games like...." then they probably haven''t even coded their ''hello world'' yet.

One day, when I just started programming, I made my first program with a bug in it, and I couldn''t fix it. And then I knew that making a game was gonna be a hell of a task.

I also believe that newbies deserve the same respect as professional programmers. It''s the effort that counts.

And hey! It would be really awesome if we could "make games in an afternoon" !
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