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Chad_Flk2003

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Chad_Flk2003    122
Howdy! A friend and I are learning to be game designers, and could use a little help finding resources for what we want to do. Ming''s going to do programming and I''m going to do art. The reason for this post is we could use some help finding resources. So, if anybody could post anything for C, C++, any other useful or necessary programming language, or anything on 2D art would be greatly appriciated.(I''m learning 3D later...) Heres an example for the style of art: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rof_gallery/49716.jpg Thanks in advance!

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Sneftel    1788
See that "For Beginners" link up there? click it.


How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

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Aniond    122
Mmm, wow you guys are kind of Rude. They are trying to learn this and you Flame em. Well, I bought a boook called C++ For Dummies and it is a good book, Explains everything well. DO you have AOL MEssenger man? I can dig something up for Art. If you want me to! Well sorry for these Flamer(s), I am a newbie too. So maybe we can learn together ..

Goals: Create a Online Multiplayer 3d Video Game. My AIM id is Amateur Designer plz add me someone. I''''m looking for a programmer to make a game with me.

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Auron    328
Aniond, those two posts were hardly flames. If the posts had have said "I hate idiots like you who come here and ask us to do everything for them! STFW!" then maybe I''d agree with you. Telling someone to look for something themselves is not flaming, it''s asking them to do what they should have done before they came to ask for help.

Besides, this site IS a resource on game programming, art, sound, etc. One should be able to find something on this site to help.

-Auron

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DarkSlayer    100
Don''t listen to those lamies above, I''ll give some hints..

You could try the dummies book if you think that would be helpful. My experience with dummie for dummies, is that they are quite thin....too thin, and non explanatory at all.

You have not said what kind of program you want, and the image given is quite....err....not very easy to interpet what kinda game you want to make.

I suggest that you study c++. All games that comes on cd''s are made with this language. This is not the only language, but the most versatile, most powerful, easiest to find help and tutorials for. Gamedev here has a TONN of stuff to look into, so you could get yourself airborne only with this.

Best book recomended for c++
Deitel & Deitel: C++ How To Programm.

This has an easy beginning, but gets difficult and cover alot more subjects, styles, and techniques. But face it, this book will not theach you how to create an game, for that you have to need to learn how to program for windows right? Thats why I recomend Deitel, because to understand windows programming alot better ( and faster ), you need a fundament. But thats done, I recommend this book...

MS Press: Programming Windows 5th Ed by Charles Petzold

This book theaches you how to start program in windows in win32 style. Don''t mind win32, you understand when you are that far. But other styles could be anything really, MFC, QT, etc etc. Win32 is also what is most covered on Gamedev.

After this windows flying start, you could start programming your game and do lots of weird stuff. But then it is time to decide if you are going to use directx, or opengl...if you don''t know what that is, you will soon figure, don''t worry.

I have not done anything graphic in my life, but a few words about it anyway. Learn photoshop is a good thing. Thats for 2d and textures. For 3d ( modeling ), you would use 3D studio, or even better gmax. gmax is better to use against games and are more and more used for modeling towards that. But thats 3d and you should not rush for that....

and another thing. the road ahead is long, and is very long to you get anything moving around, so put yourself small goals, and reward yourself.... its better beeing two than one... And I think both should learn programming, and 2d art... but don''t focus too much on 2d art for now... because in development you always end up needing alot code in one time, and alot art in another time and then alot code....

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Aniond    122
Geesh, we''re newbs. What do you expect? I have the C++ For Dummies book, its really a great book. Most of the other Dummies books weren''t good I agree, But this one is good...I mean, if your not gonna help this person then dont post. if you dont like the post STFU, and don''t read it... ok




Goals: Create a Online Multiplayer 3d Video Game. My AIM id is Amateur Designer plz add me someone. I''''m looking for a programmer to make a game with me.

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Dobbs    164
Look, everyone here is a guest of Gamedev and so we have to follow the rules they create for us. Those rules are outlined in the faq. When I say "read the forum faq" or when Sneftel says to "click the For Beginners link" it doesn''t mean "look you idiot don''t do this, didn''t you read the fucking faq?" or "hey dumbass, didn''t you see the For Beginners link?" When you''re new here you should read the faq, and if you''re new to programming or game design you should read the For Beginners section. This isn''t my opinion, it''s what the staff of Gamedev and the moderators of this forum want. Being a newbie doesn''t exempt someone from that, nor is he exempted from that because it''s easier or more convenient to ignore it.

And just so you don''t overreact to this post know that it isn''t intended as a flame, just "this is how it is," Ok?

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Aniond    122
Well, I am sorry if I blew up. but when I was starting out at Website Designing I was the same way. I needed help and people said this same crap. Now i am the one helping them. And I make sure i don''t Say this stupid stuff like "look in the For Begginners forum" that doesnt help him any. I at least try to help them. I am truly sorry I blew up but I mean cmon. I am a newb programmer and I get this same crap from everyone. Its irritating. Anyways, sorry for the angry post. But if you dont like the post or whatever dont read it. I mean that is common sense..

Anyways thanks for the wWarm Welcome Dobbs.



Goals: Create a Online Multiplayer 3d Video Game. My AIM id is Amateur Designer plz add me someone. I''''m looking for a programmer to make a game with me.

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Michalson    1657
quote:
Original post by Dobbs
Read the forum faq. This is exactly the sort of thing you shouldn''t post.


quote:
Original post by Dobbs
When you''re new here you should read the faq, and if you''re new to programming or game design you should read the For Beginners section. This isn''t my opinion, it''s what the staff of Gamedev and the moderators of this forum want. Being a newbie doesn''t exempt someone from that, nor is he exempted from that because it''s easier or more convenient to ignore it.




I disagree. (-Michalson, Moderator of For Beginners on Gamedev.net)

While it would be nice if everyone read the FAQ, not everyone is a seasoned Internet user. In fact many of them are "beginners". Not everyone has used or even heard of a FAQ before. Not everyone knows how to use a search engine (it might seem simple to you, but I have first hand experience watching many people fail to find what they want because they don''t know how to tailor search terms to a query). Not everyone has years of experience and knowledge to draw on (because even something that is obvious to you is probably not obvious to someone that has never done it before). Not everyone (including you) notice and read every link here despite them being in plain site. If want to post here you should be ready to sit down and explain even the most basic concepts, like why saving C++ code as an .exe file doesn''t work. Hopefully that didn''t come off harsh, I simply had to correct you (if you had done something to bring on my wrath in this forum your post would have been edited, deleted or closed)

Unacceptable replies have already been deleted from this thread.

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alnite    3437
i remember there was a nice article talking about this. i think it''s called "the smart way of asking a question" or something like that, and why we don''t give answer directly to those who ask. but i don''t have the link. but here''s the summary:

i don''t like to answer things directly. if someone ask me "what is 1 + 1?", i won''t say "2". but, i''ll tell that person "read this book, you''ll find the answer here." not because i''m not being helpful, but that''s because the way i learn things. when i code stuff, and come up with some problems, i won''t ask here just like that. "hey, how do you solve this and that?" first, i''ll try to solve it all by myself and see if i can do it. if not, i''ll open the help files, see if the answer is there. if not, i''ll go google and see if somebody else had the same problem and had the solution posted in the internet. if all these steps aren''t that helpful, then..i''ll ask here.

however, if ppl (here) ask me back to google, i''ll explain to them that i have been through all those stuff but didn''t find the answer. if ppl direct me some other links, i can consider it answering my question because i can go to the link that person provided and read it. so, when a person giving you a link instead of answering your question directly, that doesn''t mean that person is not helping you.


throw Exception( "End of post" );

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Aniond    122
I agree, I should have read the FAQ first. I didn''t and I got Flamed. But I mean come on. This is the FOR BEGGINNERS FORUM. If you are just gonna say READ THE FAQ, your not much help. I think that its called the begginners forum for a reason!



Goals: Create a Online Multiplayer 3d Video Game. My AIM id is Amateur Designer plz add me someone. I''''m looking for a programmer to make a game with me.

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YodaTheCoda    100
quote:
Hi

Alnite, please use CAPITALS in your posts. It is a little irritating.

Whitecrow

u dumass, some of us have our shjift and caplock keys broken dont be so arogant

please forgive my vigor but i feel it is my duty to stand up for those who have none

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Sneftel    1788
quote:
Original post by Aniond
I agree, I should have read the FAQ first. I didn''t and I got Flamed. But I mean come on. This is the FOR BEGGINNERS FORUM. If you are just gonna say READ THE FAQ, your not much help.


How is saying "read the FAQ" not much help? Reading the FAQ helps, and sometimes it''s obvious that someone hasn''t. Therefore, pointing them to the FAQ is much help.

quote:
I think that its called the begginners forum for a reason!


People in "For Beginners" are assumed to be new to Game Development, not new to thinking for themselves. At least, that''s how I always saw it.


How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

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63616C68h    122
If you plan to learn OpenGL instead of DirectX, for you graphics API, then use the google search engine (www.google.com--it''s the best), and search for the query "OpenGL Programming Guide." Utilizing this manual online is a very smart idea. First of all, it was written by the people who created OpenGL, it''s free, and it explains everything relevant to being successful with OpenGL. If you need sytaxes of OpenGL commands, you just look them up in the ''Red Book''. Yeah, that''s what everybody calls it. Because if you don''t take advantage of the free online version, you''ll have to pay $50 for a new one at Borders. And it has a red paperback cover, hence the nickname: "The Red Book." There''s also a blue book, created by the same folks (at SGI), but you don''t need to worry about that until you''ve conquered the Red Book. If you''re having trouble finding the online Red Book at SGI''s site, as I was the other day, then Google this phrase exactly: OpenGL Red Book. That should give you a link to a mirror site which hosts a copy of the Red Book. Referrencing from the Red Book and essentially getting help in it, before coming here, can save you the hassle that you''ve just experienced in your valid post (the Red Book also helps you become an expert to the newbs in the OpenGL forum). Use the Red Book, it''s what the professionals do.

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zackriggle    130
I think this thread is half flame, 1/8 fluff [useless posts] and 3/8 good information. Hey guys, I am mediocre in programming skills [a little over a n00b, but not much]. I would love to help you guys. I am going to add a lot of fluff and a little bit of good information =).

=-- Skills --=
I understand pointers very well.
I know Win32 [non-dos] programming to a certain extent.
I understand WinSock [network programming] to some extent.
I know enough VBasic to get by [who doesn't?]

=-- Working on it --=
API\Lang Status
OpenGL 0% - Haven't started
Win32 75% - Pretty good
VBasic 80% - Good Enough
OOP 75% - Little bit confused about ABC's
STL 65% - Working on it
ActiveX 0% - Just Started

If you don't know what something is, ASK !!!.

For the Newbies who might not understand some of the terms:
------API - Active Programming Interface
What makes different things work.
------OpenGL - Open Graphics Library (?)
A graphics API similar to DirectX
------Win32 - Windows, 32-bit
Alright, when you start to learn programming in C++, everything will be written in DOS. By this I mean that there will be *no* graphics. There will be text, and that is it. In a little DOS window. "How do I make normal windows like everything else?" you ask? Well, that is what Win32 is. Windows is an event-driven API. By this I mean that it only reacts when you actually do something. The button doesn't do anything until you click it, which is called an event. There are a set of instructions for the computer to follow when such an even happens.
------VBasic - Visual Basic
This is a *very* simplified and easy approach to Windows programming, and skips right over DOS. I do not recommend it, because I think that moving from VBasic -> C++ would be harder than C++ -> VBasic. It is a lot like HTML programming with FrontPage, in my opinion. If you know VBScript, this is almost exactly like it.
------OOP - Object oriented programming
OOP is actually simple to understand. You can make objects, let's say a Cat. Now, our Cat has many of its own properties, such as Hair Color, Age, and Weight. Now, with OOP we can assign properties to Objects [in this case our Cat]. Without OOP, you have to make individual variables for each and every little bitty "object". Also, with OOP, you can make LOTS of Cats. As many as you want, and they all have Hair Color, Age, and Weight automatically.
------STL - Standard Template Library
The STL can be helpful in many situations. Suppose you want to have a list of players' names, and you want to be able to add or remove them at you beck and call [any time you want]. You would use the STL to do so.
------ActiveX - ??
I'm still working on what the hell this might be...

Two Good Sites to Start Learning to Program
GameDev.net - You are here, aren't you?
GameTutorials.com - Not the best, but okay. Not very explanatory, basically just shows you WHAT works, not HOW.


What I Suggest that You Do
1.) If you do not have a Compiler [or know what one is] you need to get KaZaA Lite [www.fasttrackhelp.com], and download Microsoft Visual Studio [this is assuming you plan to do this for personal, non-profit, non-commercial purposes].
2.) In KaZaA, search for C++. You will get a few good books on programming C++, on top of the tutorial that comes with Visual Studio.
3.) It's all up to you from there


THE THINGS YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO REMEMBER
You are right, Microsoft and anything they made is wrong.
Making ONE error usually creates a few DOZEN more.
One can make a large mess, but it takes a computer to really foul things up.
If you start a project, restart it, restart it five more times, do another project, restart that fifteen times, and restart your original project, do that twelve times, only to move onto another project: a) you are acting like me and b) you are perfectly normal and c) a little bit impatient or eager [like me]


Cheers, [XtaC] (pronounced ecstacy, as in the drug =) )
AOL IM: ZachRiggle


[edited by - zackriggle on March 18, 2003 7:10:00 PM]

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micepick    122
quote:
Original post by zackriggle
------API - Active Programming Interface
What makes different things work.



That's an interesting way to put it . API stands for Application Programming Interface, and it is a term for a library of functions and data structures (or objects, if you will) that simplifies the creation of specific kinds of applications. DirectX, OpenGL, Win32 SDK, etc. are all APIs.

quote:

------OOP - Object oriented programming
OOP is actually simple to understand. You can make objects, let's say a Cat. Now, our Cat has many of its own properties, such as Hair Color, Age, and Weight. Now, with OOP we can assign properties to Objects [in this case our Cat]. Without OOP, you have to make individual variables for each and every little bitty "object". Also, with OOP, you can make LOTS of Cats. As many as you want, and they all have Hair Color, Age, and Weight automatically.



That's not the greatest way to describe OOP. You could easily accomplish the above in pure C without even a hint of OOP. Since "object-orientation" is a rather nebulous term, it's best to describe it in terms of its C++ implementation (since that's the language you're studying). Basically, C++ OOP centers around those three quintessential buzzwords, "encapsulation" "inheritance" and "polymorphism". I'm not really at the liberty to explain them ATM.

Actually, it's more about combining data and code into one clumsy lump.



[edited by - micepick on March 18, 2003 7:16:29 PM]

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lukeyes    202
There are many, MANY ways to learn how to program games.

But here is some advice from someone who''s been doing it for a couple years now.

1 - Do not underestimate patience. Making games is no way easy, understand this. There will be many times that you will want to give up, that you will think that since you are not moving fast enough, that it is hopeless. It is not. Game development is not a race. And the only way to successfully create games, either by yourself with another person, is by taking it slow and steady.

2 - start simple. You may want to make an online RPG, or even a multi-level platformer. You may want to make the coolest 3D graphics engine around. And you will. Eventually. Right now, start small. I started with tic tac toe. Even after two years, I''m up to Arkanoid, learning to build level editors and implement them. Keep it simple, keep it small. Take it in steps. By doing this, you will be able to do my next peice of advice.

3 - finish what you start. ALWAYS ALWAYS finish what you start! I met a person starting up a game publishing company, and he was impressed with my Tetris clone. Why? Because it was a FULL WORKING GAME. Always take that extra time, and finish a project. That is much more impressive than a half-done 3D graphics demo. You will have real working games under your belt, and you will be able to get feedback after all those months of work without going "well, it isn''t finished yet." And that feedback is the best reward you can get.

4 - manage your time. When I was first learning graphics programming, I devoted an hour a day to sitting down and learning it. Now, even with working 3 jobs and going to school, I attempt to devote at least an hour every other day. Don''t devote too much time, but don''t devote too little. Eventually, I began to think of learning game development as being much like exercising. Too much time spent exercising is bad for you, you might tear or pull something. Too much time programming is bad for you, you will burn yourself out. However, if you don''t pick a regular routine, it becomes that much harder to get back into the groove. Find a balance, and stick with it.

5 - find motivation. keep a ready supply of instant motivation around you. Suscribe to EGM, GamePro, etc. Buy or download soundtracks from video games. keep a CD full of intro screens downloaded from places like IGN and whatnot. There will be many times, when you will be frustrated, and ready to give up and bang your head off a wall until you die. But if you take some time out, flip through a magazine, listen to a game song, watch some FMV''s, you will find inspiration, and you will realize what your goal is. Eventually, you''ll cool off, and have both a clearer head and more energy to solve the problem that ticked you off in the first place.

however, I highly warn against playing games to cool off. I tried it and found myself having the tendency to forgo coding to just keep playing a game. Playing games is an essential part of making them, but don''t let it cut into your coding time or you''ll be wishing you were making games rather than making them.

6 - Play lots of games. Heck, even watch other people play. Actually, I like watching other people play even better since I can take time to analyze and study the game without worrying about the game itself. But find a good mixture of the two. Before doing this, I was never really a gamer, I never really played many games. Now I find myself doing it a lot almost as a necessity. Again, don''t let it cut into your coding time.

7 - Invest in books. Internet tutorials and SDK documentation tend to really suck. Invest in some good books. A bad book is better than a typical internet tutorial in my opinion. Publishers have a whole checks and balances system to attempt to raise up the quality of the material. Some may slip through the cracks, but far less than a hastily made Internet tutorial. Plus, there is something to be said for having the information physically in front of you, that you can mark and draw on, and (sometimes) throw across the room. Buying a 30-60 dollar book every here and there is a good investment for a future 40K salary.

8 - Don''t rule out anything. Always keep an open mind to different API''s (OpenGL, DirectX, SDL) and different programming languages (C++, Basic, Java). Each have their advantages and disadvantages. Learning an API is like learning a different dialect of a spoken language, and the difference between learning programming languages and learning how to program is like a difference between learning how to speak a different language and learning how to speak. by learning one aspect of programming, other aspects become that much easier. don''t become hard-headed and set in your ways, be flexible.

I''m pretty sure there will be plenty of responses regarding how to begin programming and what to use and whatnot. But I believe this advice is good for the person starting out as it goes beyond the normal advice, and will help you in the long run.

good luck, I hope to be working with you in the future.

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-silencer-    144
quote:
Original post by zackriggle

What I Suggest that You Do
1.) If you do not have a Compiler [or know what one is] you need to get KaZaA Lite [www.fasttrackhelp.com], and download Microsoft Visual Studio [this is assuming you plan to do this for personal, non-profit, non-commercial purposes].
2.) In KaZaA, search for C++. You will get a few good books on programming C++, on top of the tutorial that comes with Visual Studio.
3.) It's all up to you from there



Why promote piracy when there's plenty of great free and LEGAL ways to create games?

1.) If you do not have a compiler, download the following:
pcGrasp (text editor/interface from Auburn Univeristy)
http://www.eng.auburn.edu/grasp/
and a C/C++ compiler
DJGPP http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/
or
GCC http://www.cygwin.com/

2.) In Google, search for C++ tutorial. You will get many great links (the open course notes for universities are usually great) on C/C++ info.
http://www.cs.ucf.edu/courses/cop3502/nihan/spr03/lectures.html
http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/
http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial.html
http://www.intap.net/~drw/cpp/

After you've taken an interest in C/C++ programming, I highly recommend Deitel & Deitel's "C++: How to Program" and for art: the "Photoshop 7 (or 6) WoW!" book. Definately buy a copy of Adobe Photoshop or Jasc Paint Shop Pro for artwork. Paint Shop Pro is $99, and if you're a high school or college student you can get Photoshop 7 for around $275 (discounted from $600 without academic discount). You can also get MSVisual C++ for around $99 with the academic discount.

3.) It's all up to you from there

(silencer)

[edited by - -silencer- on March 18, 2003 8:50:34 PM]

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antistuff    122
quote:

What I Suggest that You Do
1.) If you do not have a Compiler [or know what one is] you need to get KaZaA Lite [www.fasttrackhelp.com], and download Microsoft Visual Studio [this is assuming you plan to do this for personal, non-profit, non-commercial purposes].
2.) In KaZaA, search for C++. You will get a few good books on programming C++, on top of the tutorial that comes with Visual Studio.
3.) It''s all up to you from there



this is uh....illegal. there are plenty of free c++ compilers. you can also get a student version of msvc for like $50, i even got a copy in the back of a book once.

go buy a book. actulay buy two books, because each always has its good points and bad points. one i recomend is orielys practical c++ programing (a little out of date, i dont know if they released a new edition, but its a good book). makes a really good reference when you cant remember something.

for art, i cant really help. but ive seen that barnes and nobles has a game development section in a lot of thier stores now. go sit in it and skim through a couple of books about art and maybe youll see somethign that will help you.

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Dobbs    164
quote:
Original post by Michalson
I disagree. (-Michalson, Moderator of For Beginners on Gamedev.net)


Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I didn''t mean that all posters in this forum should know to read the FAQ before posting, or even that they should have to read it. But if they''re doing what the faq says not to then they should be told to read it. I tell them that to be helpful, not, as many people seem to assume, to attack them.

This is somewhat tangential and you''re welcome to debate it, but I think if you are smart enough to post on GameDev''s forums then you should know how to use a search engine. How someone in this day and age hasn''t heard of Google when it''s become an everyday term baffles me. And, while not as common as Googling, I don''t think it''s totally unreasonable for many people to know what a FAQ is and to know it''s a good idea to read it. Not everyone, but many people. I think Sneftel summed up my thoughts pretty well:

quote:
Original post by Sneftel
People in "For Beginners" are assumed to be new to Game Development, not new to thinking for themselves. At least, that''s how I always saw it.

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Aniond    122
Well, Dobbs I appreciate you being nice to me. But I would never have found this site if it wasn''t for a friiend. I was responding to some newbs on a website designing forum. and they mentioned it. Most of the people on here are Jerks. Lukeeyes, DarkSlayer, Zackriggle are the only ones that were kind enough to help me out. Dobbs also, was helpful.
you guys should go to a HTML/XHTML forum and post questions, you wont get Flamed cause the people are actually decent there. Lukeeyes, DarkSlayer, Zackriggle , Dobbs are the only nice people on here obiviously.



Goals: Create a Online Multiplayer 3d Video Game. My AIM id is Amateur Designer plz add me someone. I''''m looking for a programmer to make a game with me.

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