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That link dosnt work for me either.

Though here are some more perma death links .

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=111801
http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?s=912ba3c1d7d7bbbd7ec32d87879d7d70&threadid=2668
http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/eq/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=eqwestwood&Number=739456&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1


...enjoy


:::: [ Triple Buffer V2.0 ] ::::

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Worked for me

Just adding my thoughts. I think the problem is that most games go for one of the extremes regarding permadeath. Either you want permadeath, and then the player is dead when he''s dead, or you dont want it, and let people get themselves killed over and over. Why not mix those two together? You could make a system where people will usually respawn after dying, but during special events can get permakilled. Or force influential players to risk permadeath in return for becoming famous/respected/powerful. So everyone can in theory permakill a big leader if they want to (and if he dont have any bodyguards or anything), but your average player won''t actually risk too much from dying. Or make people die in the usual die->respawn way, but enable people to permakill by destroying the (non-permakilled) corpses, in return for some penalty to ensure people only permakill when they have a reason to.
Just a couple of random ideas on how you could mix permadeath with the usual die->respawn stuff...

---------
Life is like a grapefruit. It''s sort of orangy-yellow and dimpled on the outside, wet and squidgy in the middle. It''s got pips inside, too. Oh, and some people have half a one for breakfast

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Hehe I love permadeath discussions. I don''t know why, maybe because it''s such a hard idea to make fun.

Spoonster,
I thought the second idea you had about having to destroy the non perma-killed corpse was a great idea for handeling permadeath. What sort of consequences would there be for choosing to permakill someone? That''s a tough one.

Here''s an idea of my own. Each player could have a living will where they could will all of their items/cash to their friends. That way people wouldn''t permakill just to steal stuff because all the items that were willed would immediately go to a friend of the dead player. If the game had a friends list people could just right click an item and click will and then pick someone from their friends list. That would make it easy to keep your living will updated.

jake

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quote:
Original post by jakerrz
Spoonster,
I thought the second idea you had about having to destroy the non perma-killed corpse was a great idea for handeling permadeath. What sort of consequences would there be for choosing to permakill someone? That''s a tough one.


Just some half-baked idea really, just to prove that you didn''t have to go for some kind of all-or-nothing mentality regarding permadeath. But maybe you could suffer a couple of hours (playing time) of reduced skills? Say, the psychological effect of killing someone traumatizes your avatar (lol) or maybe the deceased''s spirit haunts you for a while, making it impossible for you to do anything properly. Could take a while to permakill someone too. Maybe for some reason you have to carry out a 1-minute ritual to kill someone properly, which means it isn''t practical to do when you''ve just ambushed some poor defenseless newbie, or in the middle fo a big battle, but can still be useful for assasinating important characters, for example.

quote:

Here''s an idea of my own. Each player could have a living will where they could will all of their items/cash to their friends. That way people wouldn''t permakill just to steal stuff because all the items that were willed would immediately go to a friend of the dead player. If the game had a friends list people could just right click an item and click will and then pick someone from their friends list. That would make it easy to keep your living will updated.

jake


Depends on how important equipment is versus your characters skills/level. Might make permadeath rather pointless since you can give your stuff to a friend, start a new character, and get it back again, so in effect it''s not so much permadeath as it''s a skill/level reset. Anyway, you''ll still have wasted all the hard work you put into your character, although you''ll suddenly be a rather well-armed newbie with your new character...
But I think it''d still be too much of a penalty if this is the only compensation for being permakilled... Just because get to keep my equipment doesn''t mean I can live with having to start over every 30 minutes because anyone can just kill me.

I think the key is risk/reward balance. You have to implement a system which allows average players to stay alive to enjoy playing, while having the potential of permadeath to spice things up, and give people a reason to roleplay/kill each others. MMOG''s really need player involvement in the plot, and that''s just not going to happen if players don''t have a way to actually achieve anything. If I kill an enemy who respawns in his home town 5 seconds later, I don''t feel all that motivated to kill more of them, and basically nothing ever happens...

---------
Life is like a grapefruit. It''s sort of orangy-yellow and dimpled on the outside, wet and squidgy in the middle. It''s got pips inside, too. Oh, and some people have half a one for breakfast

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Spoonster
I think the key is risk/reward balance. You have to implement a system which allows average players to stay alive to enjoy playing, while having the potential of permadeath to spice things up, and give people a reason to roleplay/kill each others.



I agree. To make permadeath work i think it needs to be an option for hardcore gamers. Maybe if you chose permadeath you could use special items that others couldn''t.

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Except then you''d have to balance a game where some people are obviously stronger than others (because they can use better equipment). On the other hand, if they can die just like that... Hmm, wouldn''t be easy to pull off, but could be pretty good...

Though I still think it''d be better to let the reward be solely in the player interactions (I just killed the big bad enemy leader. Now everyone will worship me / Now I can conquer his city/insert other goal here. The whole point about MMOG''s is player interaction, and not spiffy equipment, so I think the "reward" for risking permadeath should be something along the same lines. Maybe with a skill/stats/equipment-related penalty to balance it out and prevent rampant PK''ing

---------
Life is like a grapefruit. It''s sort of orangy-yellow and dimpled on the outside, wet and squidgy in the middle. It''s got pips inside, too. Oh, and some people have half a one for breakfast

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It has been said that MMORPGs bring the dynamics of table-top role-playing closer to reality. What if, someone WANTS to be killed as part of a temporary fusion-spell to help defeat a monster? Let''s say, the spirt is a benificiary if a certain ritual is performed first (like suggested). Wouldn''t that be cool? Because I don''t see Everquest doing anything like that.

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Link still works for me.

Personally, I like the idea of perma-death as an option to gaining something the non-permas don''t have. Balancing would be an issue of course, but not impossible. The difficulty would be in ensuring that deaths due to uncontrollable circumstances don''t happen too often - lag, game bugs, etc. Or you could just say if you want to play a perma-death character you live with the possible consequences.

Another idea is to force characters into a perma-death mode in order to rise above a certain level. Say after level 50 your character automatically goes into perma-death mode. Or make it an option and the player can continue to play the level 50 character in non-perma mode but will never get any higher. The only thing he could do is get better loot or get better at a trade or something similar.

It''ll be interesting to see how some of the games the people in the discussion turn out.

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If you are going to do Perma-Death, you need to at least make it interesting...


A developer can''t put Perma-Death in a game just to have perma-death. Even though the players may expect it, when it actually happens and the player now has nothing left, he/she will probably not want to start up a new character.

You need to give some kind of relief to players who''s characters have died. You can''t expect them to start from scratch everytime. Something like a behind the scenes apprentice that will at least be a playable character when you finally have to play him when the players original character dies.

And even though your character is permanently dead, doesn''t mean we still can''t have fun with it. Being able to haunt an area or person(aka, your killer) with your ghost or spirit every now and then would be entertaining. You could also have a place similar in respect to Hades, where dead people can chat and bs with each other. Heck, you could even have a quest to resurrect your old self, in a rotten undead kind of way.

Perma-Death could be cool if you can do it right.

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I think one thing that would have to be done before permadeth is implemented is to have NPC guards, bounty hunters, etc that will hunt down people that constantly kill other players. They shouldn''t automatically know that the person is killing, but maybe when somebody dies they let out a scream and the nearest guards come running to see who did it or something like that. You would need hunters of all levels though so a player can''t just get high level and start killing everything (though they do need to feel powerfull at high levels).

You also need to make a good experience system so there can be places n00bs go where high level players probably won''t go often (not to get experience/skill points/etc anyways). The problem is that the area can''t feel like it was ''designed for n00bs'' because then immesion isn''t as great and it feels artificial. There needs to be maybe an Orc tribe full of weaklings for n00bs to fight off or something like that.

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if perma-death were an option at character creation, then players who choose to use perma-death could enjoy the benefits of leveling at a higher rate (or to you "i hate levels" people, their skills could increase faster than an equivalent non-perma-death charater). that way, a player can choose to not advance as quickly, but not have to worry about dying forever.

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Think of how its done in Single-Player games. Here are the two save/load concepts in single player games that I can think of:

- Quick-saving - You save, go in and die, and load and try the same thing again (Splinter Cell, Monkey Island)
- Point-saving - Finish a level or stage of the game and you get to save (FF, Diablo''s quest system, Mario World).


I''d write more, but I really have to go... Someone can continue for me if wanted.



- Rob Loach
Current Project: Upgrade to .NET and DirectX 9
Percent Complete: X%

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quote:
Original post by krez
if perma-death were an option at character creation, then players who choose to use perma-death could enjoy the benefits of leveling at a higher rate (or to you "i hate levels" people, their skills could increase faster than an equivalent non-perma-death charater). that way, a player can choose to not advance as quickly, but not have to worry about dying forever.



Diablo 2 comes to mind.



- Rob Loach
Current Project: Upgrade to .NET and DirectX 9
Percent Complete: X%

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quote:
Original post by spearson69
A developer can''t put Perma-Death in a game just to have perma-death.

Why not? If that''s what they want, they can do it. Whether or not it is a selling point or a turn-off is another matter. It would depend on how it''s done.
quote:
Original post by spearson69
Even though the players may expect it, when it actually happens and the player now has nothing left, he/she will probably not want to start up a new character.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I probably wouldn''t play a game where perma-death is the only option, but if it''s an option, then the player lives with the consequences if he sets the character as a perma-death.
quote:
Original post by spearson69
You need to give some kind of relief to players who''s characters have died. You can''t expect them to start from scratch everytime.

Again, why not?
quote:
Original post by spearson69
Something like a behind the scenes apprentice that will at least be a playable character when you finally have to play him when the players original character dies.

These are ideas, but not requirements. If a developer doesn''t do something like this, you can''t say it''s wrong. If perma-death means perma-death (duh!) then, again, the player suffers the consequences if he chooses to play with that option.
quote:
Original post by spearson69
Perma-Death could be cool if you can do it right.


Everyone''s definition of right is different however. Yours might not match mine. Ultimately it''s what the developer decides is right. If people don''t think it''s right then they won''t buy the game.


quote:
Original post by Extrarius
I think one thing that would have to be done before permadeth is implemented is to have NPC guards, bounty hunters, etc that will hunt down people that constantly kill other players. They shouldn''t automatically know that the person is killing, but maybe when somebody dies they let out a scream and the nearest guards come running to see who did it or something like that. You would need hunters of all levels though so a player can''t just get high level and start killing everything (though they do need to feel powerfull at high levels).

Why would this have to be done? If you allow PvP (with or without restrictions), that''s a risk you take. If you choose to set your character to perma-death, you suffer the consequences. Personally I wouldn''t allow PvP just anywhere, so it wouldn''t be a problem. If you enter a PvP area with perma-death on, you take the risk and suffer the consequences. It''s up to the player to determine if the consequences are worth the risk, not the developer to protect the player if he chooses to take the risk. Then it''s not a risk.
quote:
Original post by Extrarius
You also need to make a good experience system so there can be places n00bs go where high level players probably won''t go often (not to get experience/skill points/etc anyways).

This is PvP realted - a whole separate issue than perma-death.
quote:
Original post by krez
if perma-death were an option at character creation, then players who choose to use perma-death could enjoy the benefits of leveling at a higher rate (or to you "i hate levels" people, their skills could increase faster than an equivalent non-perma-death charater). that way, a player can choose to not advance as quickly, but not have to worry about dying forever.

An interesting option.
quote:
Original post by Rob Loach
Think of how its done in Single-Player games. Here are the two save/load concepts in single player games that I can think of:

- Quick-saving - You save, go in and die, and load and try the same thing again (Splinter Cell, Monkey Island)
- Point-saving - Finish a level or stage of the game and you get to save (FF, Diablo''s quest system, Mario World).

Not sure how this is relevant to MMO games, perhaps it''s just the caffeine?

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quote:
Original post by krez
if perma-death were an option at character creation, then players who choose to use perma-death could enjoy the benefits of leveling at a higher rate (or to you "i hate levels" people, their skills could increase faster than an equivalent non-perma-death charater). that way, a player can choose to not advance as quickly, but not have to worry about dying forever.


Unfortunately, this allows all players (perma-death and normal) to obtain the same exact rewards (whether that be levels, items, etc). I think the key to a good perma-death implementationg is the option to be perma-death with a reward system that grants special rewards that cannot be attained at all through non-perma-death modes. It can''t be just quicker rewards ... that doesn''t make the option worth the risk.

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Hope this quote stuff works..
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original post by spearson69
You need to give some kind of relief to players who's characters have died. You can't expect them to start from scratch everytime.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, why not?


I personally hate starting from scratch twice in a game. So in order to keep starting from scratch fresh, I suppose that low level content would need to be continualy changed and added to keep it from being boring and repetitive. It all boils down to how much content you have IMO.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original post by spearson69
Something like a behind the scenes apprentice that will at least be a playable character when you finally have to play him when the players original character dies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


These are ideas, but not requirements. If a developer doesn't do something like this, you can't say it's wrong. If perma-death means perma-death (duh!) then, again, the player suffers the consequences if he chooses to play with that option.



I never said they were requirements, just an idea on how to make perma-death more appealing if one were to take that route. In my opinion, the perma death route needs something that the non perma death route doesn't offer, some kind of incentive to do it. Or else I just don't see perma death as being something fun, again my opinion.


[edited by - spearson69 on March 28, 2003 2:45:18 PM]

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quote:
Original post by spearson69
I never said they were requirements, just an idea on how to make perma-death more appealing if one were to take that route. In my opinion, the perma death route needs something that the non perma death route doesn''t offer, some kind of incentive to do it. Or else I just don''t see perma death as being something fun, again my opinion.



Here you go again, either you enable permadeath (for your own character or for the entire game as a developer), or you don''t have it at all... Why does everyone always go for one of the extreme solutions regarding permadeath?
What''s wrong with some in-between solution? So people can both die "normally" and permanently, depending on circumstances? If you can enable or disable permadeath on a per-character basis, that''s just asking for trouble. Either you risk that all the non-permadeath people will flock and kill the perma-people all the time, or the permadeath people will use the rewards they get from choosing that option (faster levelling, better equipment or whatever), while staying away from battles where they might get killed.

If we think logically about it, what are the possible reasons for allowing permadeath? I can only think of one reason. If anyone else can think of other reasons, post them for the rest of us to see...
But this is what I could come up with
:
- To give players a purpose in the storyline. If I can''t kill someone, why would I bother to fight them at all? If I can get killed, I''ll need to be careful, and maybe, if I''m sufficiently important, get some bodyguards. If I can''t die, why would I bother? I could in theory run straight into the middle of an enemy guild''s home, and I wouldn''t care because I''d respawn immediately afterwards.

The reasons for not doing so is simple:
-People don''t want to start over all the time because they get killed
-It might be exploited by grief players.

So, from this basic premise, it should be obvious that permadeath shouldn''t just give you better loot or faster levelling... If that''s what people want, why not give everyone that without permadeath? If we want permadeath, it should be because it''d allow players to interact with each others and get some kind of storyline going. Not just because we (or a small elite of hardcore Players) think it''s a cool feature.
So, if permadeath is something each player can choose to enable or disable, the reward for enabling it should somehow be more influence in the game world. More sort of social benefits than cool cash, items or levels. Maybe permadeath enabled should be a requirement for being a guild leader? For being able to build cities? For solving certain unique quests? Or something else?
Or permadeath of some kind should be enabled for everyone, but with so many restrictions that it''d only be used in special cases, while most deaths would be handled in the normal way with respawning.

---------
Life is like a grapefruit. It''s sort of orangy-yellow and dimpled on the outside, wet and squidgy in the middle. It''s got pips inside, too. Oh, and some people have half a one for breakfast

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I think permadeath is too extreme. As spearson69 pointed out, starting from scratch is a pain in the ass. Whether you want to start from scratch or not depends on the players. What if a player still wants to build up his character and then suddenly die killed by another player or some enemies. If perma-death is applied, the player won't find it interesting anymore to start from scratch because he is still in fond of his previous character.

A solution that I'd like to propose is to introduce a different penalty system. So far, MMORPG games we have today is about uber characters/skills and uber items, and that's all that they have. The reason why permadeath is so extreme is because if players use permadeath, players lose all these. You lose what's important, you lose all that you have been improving, and there is no way to regain them back (or may take hours).
"I love this guy, I spend hours leveling up this guy, and now he is dead (because of this stupid lag..[insert more here])!"

Now what about if there is a new system where if players die, they don't lose their characters (because that's what they love, and must reward to those you have played a game for hours, and not losing your character is the reward) but they become somewhat useless in the game world regardless of their level/skill or item. I am thinking about turning money/gold into the most important element in the game (just like in real life). You die, you don't lose your character, but you lose all the money you carry. If you don't have money, you simply can't do anything. You have become very useless even though you are level 50 with 1000 damage sword in your hands. Your character will find it impossible to go from cities to cities to dungeons because he has no money. So, players will feel like "newbie" again because he can't do anything much without money. He has to start looting/find money again, just like most starters do.


Current project: 2D in Direct3D engine.
% completed: ~20%


[edited by - alnite on March 28, 2003 4:11:06 PM]

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Highlander. Make perma-death possible, but hard to achieve. Most times, death leads to respawn, but, every so often it leads to perma-death.

Simplest way around the lag-kill problem is to keep tracking player''s lag. If the player lag is too high, they can''t be perma-killed. Obvious refinements to discourage players from just disconnecting when they''re about to die, but the point is that the correct solution to lag-kills isn''t to prevent all deaths, but to detect lag-kills and prevent them...

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quote:
Original post by spearson69
I personally hate starting from scratch twice in a game. So in order to keep starting from scratch fresh, I suppose that low level content would need to be continualy changed and added to keep it from being boring and repetitive. It all boils down to how much content you have IMO.

Then perhaps you might not choose to play a perma-enabled character. I agree that the starting levels need to be more interesting. I wouldn''t play a perma-enabled character if I had to kill rats and bug every time I died.
quote:
Original post by spearson69
I never said they were requirements, just an idea on how to make perma-death more appealing if one were to take that route. In my opinion, the perma death route needs something that the non perma death route doesn''t offer, some kind of incentive to do it. Or else I just don''t see perma death as being something fun, again my opinion.

You did say "You need to give some kind of relief to players who''s characters have died. You can''t expect them to start from scratch everytime." I would have to say "No, you don''t." and "Yes you can". While an "apprentice" type character might be one way to make it easier to bear losing a character I would say it''s the not the best way to go about it. The reason you suggest that, I believe, is due to the fact that playing a newbie character is not often fun. That''s a design flaw that needs to be fixed, not offer a work-around to skip over the newbie levels. The incentive to play a perma character shouldn''t be the fact that you can skip over those levels if you die. It should be something that only perma characters can obtain. Some of the ideas suggested were pretty good. One, several, or all of them could be used. I would think playing a perma character wouldn''t be as much fun as it is challenging. You might have some fun, but that wouldn''t be the main point. It would be to do something not many others do - the incentive(s) that is offered.

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