My earlier post was a little terse - by Highlander-style rare perma-deaths, I did indeed have in mind a system that required deliberate effort on the part of the killer - possibly even by adding to the game the infamous "bullet with your name on it" - an item specific to every character that can perma-kill that one character. Both the player carrying the item and the player who can be killed by it are notified of the fact as soon as they come within LoS of each other.
And, in general, I think that making a new (sufficiently different) character should allow you to access new portions/aspects of the game almost immediately, rather than forcing you to go through identical boring low-level stuff. I think that players choosing to make new characters in order to try something different should be part of the game. Of course, if all the characters do for the first 20 levels is kill goblins, there''s no point starting over with a different character - there has to be sufficient diversity to be worth starting over.
Perma-death Discussion
In real life we don''t kill each other because it''s permanent, because we''re teached not too, and because it''ll cost us a lot. (Jail...)
In a game, when you kill someone nothing special happens, the character is dead and that''s all.
Maybe if there was some drawback perma death could be ok.
About the restarting from scratch, well you don''t need to, simply introduce reincarnation, and give the new character some/most of the skills of the old one.
That way you have a brand new character which is the reincarnation of the former and the player did not lost everything.
Simple and effective.
I still think that no matter what you choose, there should always be a drawback from killing a player character.
Side note:
Do not EVER use a murder based XP system !
-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-
In a game, when you kill someone nothing special happens, the character is dead and that''s all.
Maybe if there was some drawback perma death could be ok.
About the restarting from scratch, well you don''t need to, simply introduce reincarnation, and give the new character some/most of the skills of the old one.
That way you have a brand new character which is the reincarnation of the former and the player did not lost everything.
Simple and effective.
I still think that no matter what you choose, there should always be a drawback from killing a player character.
Side note:
Do not EVER use a murder based XP system !
-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-
do you know what I worry about permadeath system?
No one ever reaches high level.
Think about it, the players are human, and human make mistakes, a lot. Even though the player is a skilled player, but still at some point, he will eventually make a mistake. By the time he makes a mistake, his character die, and he goes back to lvl1 again. So, if the max level is 50, I am sure that the highest level that players can achieve is around level 15.
If all the uber skills are for high level, these players will never be able to get them, and stuck in the lower level skills.
Solution? Lowering maximum level. What if the maximum level is 15, or 20. That is, a level 10 character can be considered "uber." If he is killed, he starts over back to level 1, but he won''t lose much. Just like in an arcade game. If you are in stage 3, you die and game over, you don''t lose much playing time. But, if you are in the last stage, killed by some mini boss and the game is over, if you think the game is fun, you still want to play it again anyway even though you starts back to stage 1, "I''m gonna kick his ass this time!"
He can also try another race/class if he wants too. So, what I envision is, there will be many lower level players (1-10) wandering around in the game world.
However, there is another problem, how to make these players not get bored being in lower levels all the time (killed, new char, killed new char). Even though a player is a sucky player, he must find it fun playing this game. A player must not feel "I''m in the n00b area" or "I have n00b items" when he starts a new char. In addition, having the max level lowered tends to make a smaller game world. There should be a new MMORPG system, smaller world, less max level, intense combat, and permadeath. Permadeath won''t fit in the current MMORPGs we have.
Current project: 2D in Direct3D engine.
% completed: ~35%
Status: Active.
No one ever reaches high level.
Think about it, the players are human, and human make mistakes, a lot. Even though the player is a skilled player, but still at some point, he will eventually make a mistake. By the time he makes a mistake, his character die, and he goes back to lvl1 again. So, if the max level is 50, I am sure that the highest level that players can achieve is around level 15.
If all the uber skills are for high level, these players will never be able to get them, and stuck in the lower level skills.
Solution? Lowering maximum level. What if the maximum level is 15, or 20. That is, a level 10 character can be considered "uber." If he is killed, he starts over back to level 1, but he won''t lose much. Just like in an arcade game. If you are in stage 3, you die and game over, you don''t lose much playing time. But, if you are in the last stage, killed by some mini boss and the game is over, if you think the game is fun, you still want to play it again anyway even though you starts back to stage 1, "I''m gonna kick his ass this time!"
He can also try another race/class if he wants too. So, what I envision is, there will be many lower level players (1-10) wandering around in the game world.
However, there is another problem, how to make these players not get bored being in lower levels all the time (killed, new char, killed new char). Even though a player is a sucky player, he must find it fun playing this game. A player must not feel "I''m in the n00b area" or "I have n00b items" when he starts a new char. In addition, having the max level lowered tends to make a smaller game world. There should be a new MMORPG system, smaller world, less max level, intense combat, and permadeath. Permadeath won''t fit in the current MMORPGs we have.
Current project: 2D in Direct3D engine.
% completed: ~35%
Status: Active.
How bout making death an integral part of the game? Something the players don''t have to fear, but instead prepare for. Like when you die, you become an immortal (or even a god, depending on how far you''ve advanced). Dunno how this would fit into the game or anything, just throwing another idea in the mix...
You are correct alnite. Permadeath doesn''t fit in the current crop of games. But it could make for much more exciting games. Even with a lowered high-level (25 rather than 50) you still wont be getting very many players who are level 25. And eventually, even the high level player will slip up, then its back to level 1 again. It''s a cheap way to solve the economy problems that exist when everyone lasts forever. With a smaller world, it can be much more exciting.
It becomes fun to see how long you can last before you have to make a new character.
Another idea I had, (kind of stolen from a tale in the desert) is that there should be many things in the game that require teamwork to accomplish. This way, you can have cooperation to offset that fact that when you kill someone they don''t come back. There needs to be enough reasons to keep other players alive to offset the bonus that you may get for killing them. And just the "feel bad" quotient isn''t enough. It''s all well and good to punish players who permanently kill others, but in my opinion its even better if you reward them not to.
For instance, maybe you could have something where you get experience for leaving someone alone for a while after beating them down. Players would be more inclined to beat someone down then leave them alone afterwards, rather than permanently killing them.
It becomes fun to see how long you can last before you have to make a new character.
Another idea I had, (kind of stolen from a tale in the desert) is that there should be many things in the game that require teamwork to accomplish. This way, you can have cooperation to offset that fact that when you kill someone they don''t come back. There needs to be enough reasons to keep other players alive to offset the bonus that you may get for killing them. And just the "feel bad" quotient isn''t enough. It''s all well and good to punish players who permanently kill others, but in my opinion its even better if you reward them not to.
For instance, maybe you could have something where you get experience for leaving someone alone for a while after beating them down. Players would be more inclined to beat someone down then leave them alone afterwards, rather than permanently killing them.
Simple way to penalise PKing is with an alignment system - if the PC goes around PKing - or at least PKing good guys - his alignment heads south... good aligned characters get in game bonuses, evil aligned characters get penalties and a sign saying "kill me" on their back. Examples of in game advantages include reduced costs, access to better purchases (craftsmen are more likely to do their best work for you) and access to some cool mechanics (like the AD&D Paladin)
Of course, the bad guys might get some interesting classes too, but in both cases, straying too far from your class'' base alignment(s) attracts heavy penalties and loss of privileges
Of course, the bad guys might get some interesting classes too, but in both cases, straying too far from your class'' base alignment(s) attracts heavy penalties and loss of privileges
quote:Original post by Saluk
It becomes fun to see how long you can last before you have to make a new character.
That''s the whole point, I think. The challenge of surviving would be the selling point of the game. Having interesting and challenging things to do no matter what level you are would be another point. I think people would play it just for bragging rights of being a high level character.
quote:Original post by Saluk Another idea I had, (kind of stolen from a tale in the desert) is that there should be many things in the game that require teamwork to accomplish. This way, you can have cooperation to offset that fact that when you kill someone they don''t come back. There needs to be enough reasons to keep other players alive to offset the bonus that you may get for killing them. And just the "feel bad" quotient isn''t enough. It''s all well and good to punish players who permanently kill others, but in my opinion its even better if you reward them not to.
Teamwork should be a requirement for all MMORPGs and so far that''s the case in many areas. Some MOBs are too powerful for even the highest level character.
Bring back the highlander idea...
What if only perma death-enabled characters can perma-kill other perma death enabled characters?
In the game, everyone could have a certain item, a charm, or device (in sci-fi games), that keep them from being killed for real, and from being able to kill other people. In order to a character kill another, both should have their amulets turned off.
Then to kill someone, the player would need to open themselves to the risk of being killed too. That would make things more fair, and avoid a whole guild of newbies to hunt down a single high level character and take him down for good, and keep demi-gods from walking around and vaporizing newbies just by looking at them.
What if only perma death-enabled characters can perma-kill other perma death enabled characters?
In the game, everyone could have a certain item, a charm, or device (in sci-fi games), that keep them from being killed for real, and from being able to kill other people. In order to a character kill another, both should have their amulets turned off.
Then to kill someone, the player would need to open themselves to the risk of being killed too. That would make things more fair, and avoid a whole guild of newbies to hunt down a single high level character and take him down for good, and keep demi-gods from walking around and vaporizing newbies just by looking at them.
Yeah, the n00b experience in most online rpgs is fairly boring. If one could keep every stage of character advancement fresh/fun/challenging, I'd say you would have a hit on your hands.. 
If I were to make a mmorpg(which won't happen), I would include perma-death, heck, just for the sake of it, lets say it is mandatory as well. To do this, you would have to do what every other game has had trouble doing, that is making every class or skill equally attractive, every stage of your character, from low level to high level needs to be balanced and fun. I want to make sure the player get his money's worth out of my game.
Lets look at death penalties for example, lets say up until a certain level, the character will always respawn when it dies, but with each increasing level, the time inbetween your death and respawning gets greater and greater, until you hit the stage where you no longer respawn. Now the player knows that sooner or later, he is going to hit that plateau, and when it happens he best be prepared. And as the developer, I better have given him every opportunity to be prepared.
Of course, as another example, you could make every character perma death ready once they log on for the first time, that way, it is a challenge to make it to a high level without a death(i.e. bragging rights). And it would most likely make for a lot of turnover. Most characters probably wouldn't make it very far until they had to start over again. Again in this case, you would have to stress low level content, and making sure playing a newb is fun each time you do it.
The second scenario would probably apply to hardcore gamers the most..
*shrug* I don't know, just tossing out ideas...
Actually, after rereading this, I think I would prefer a system like my second example, I guess it looks like more fun... heh
[edited by - spearson69 on April 7, 2003 6:16:51 PM]
If I were to make a mmorpg(which won't happen), I would include perma-death, heck, just for the sake of it, lets say it is mandatory as well. To do this, you would have to do what every other game has had trouble doing, that is making every class or skill equally attractive, every stage of your character, from low level to high level needs to be balanced and fun. I want to make sure the player get his money's worth out of my game.
Lets look at death penalties for example, lets say up until a certain level, the character will always respawn when it dies, but with each increasing level, the time inbetween your death and respawning gets greater and greater, until you hit the stage where you no longer respawn. Now the player knows that sooner or later, he is going to hit that plateau, and when it happens he best be prepared. And as the developer, I better have given him every opportunity to be prepared.
Of course, as another example, you could make every character perma death ready once they log on for the first time, that way, it is a challenge to make it to a high level without a death(i.e. bragging rights). And it would most likely make for a lot of turnover. Most characters probably wouldn't make it very far until they had to start over again. Again in this case, you would have to stress low level content, and making sure playing a newb is fun each time you do it.
The second scenario would probably apply to hardcore gamers the most..
*shrug* I don't know, just tossing out ideas...
Actually, after rereading this, I think I would prefer a system like my second example, I guess it looks like more fun... heh
[edited by - spearson69 on April 7, 2003 6:16:51 PM]
You could do something like, when you fight someone and his health reaches 0, he will fall unconsious. then you can take his stuff and/or you could give a finishing blow.
Giving someone that finishing blow without reason (example -guilds/kingdoms could wage war with each other making murder between these 2 groups "legal" will give you a price on your head. so if someone takes you out he can get the bounty and take your stuff. If you kill enough people others can kill you without getting the penalty. (This should make mass noob murder a bad idea and even mass mid-level character murder a bit less atractive)
The problem is with the mmorpg''s of today that players have their names above their heads, so if the rumor spreads of playerA being a murderer everyone will know which character to hunt and where he is and he will most likely die extremely fast. So this system isn''t completely flawless yet, but maybe you guys can something with it. :D
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MR.IStillNeedToMakeAnAccountSomeday
Giving someone that finishing blow without reason (example -guilds/kingdoms could wage war with each other making murder between these 2 groups "legal"
will give you a price on your head. so if someone takes you out he can get the bounty and take your stuff. If you kill enough people others can kill you without getting the penalty. (This should make mass noob murder a bad idea and even mass mid-level character murder a bit less atractive)The problem is with the mmorpg''s of today that players have their names above their heads, so if the rumor spreads of playerA being a murderer everyone will know which character to hunt and where he is and he will most likely die extremely fast. So this system isn''t completely flawless yet, but maybe you guys can something with it. :D
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MR.IStillNeedToMakeAnAccountSomeday
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