Where talking about fantasy here guys... don't forget it.
In fact, all of ths is meaningless.
NO ONE WHATSOEVER CAN STAND A BASTARDSWORD HIT
NO ONE WHATSOEVER STAND A GODDAMN CHANCE AGAINST A DRAGON.
Its not aimed at being realistic.... a realistic rpg set in a fantasy world is called an oxymoron...
If its a pity a guy can be hit on the head with a warhammer and get up.... Is it a pity he can cast a fireball?
There's no argument here... If you want you character to need being hit in order to NOT lose HP, do so.... if you like your system, apply it. If you want a realisticgame, choose another genre please.
[edited by - xMcBainx on March 31, 2003 10:13:44 PM]
Realistic RPGs?
What happens if two high level characters are dueling? Will there be looong stretches where no hits are landed, until someone gets lucky and lands that 5% chance hit? Also, presumably even a high level character would sucumb to a horde of weak goblins. Does your system allow for that? (gradual weakening of a high level opponent)
maybe im the only one who sees it this way, but I see rpg characters as mythical heroes of some sort. That way, I don''t see them falling to a throng of weak goblins... I believe they
could handle 4 at a time... or how many could attack at the same time anyway... And archers do not shoot through their guys... wait... that''ll be cool...
could handle 4 at a time... or how many could attack at the same time anyway... And archers do not shoot through their guys... wait... that''ll be cool...
Generally simulations are better than emulations.
Missing alot of hits is quite boring in an RPG, and taking the sense of accomplishment gained from increased HP is no fun.
This system will be better and more realistic than the HP system , cool
But Will it be Fun? will it be worth it? does the player want to think about states or does the person prefer simple abstractions?
I take no sides here, if you can create a fun and easily understandable implentation of your new health system then great job, but will it in the end boil down to the same thing as HP as you try to simplify the complicated system of different areas of damage? And again will it be worth it?
If you can answer counter to all these questions then I think you have a great system going there and wish you good luck in its implementation.
[edited by - Daerax on March 31, 2003 10:31:29 PM]
Missing alot of hits is quite boring in an RPG, and taking the sense of accomplishment gained from increased HP is no fun.
This system will be better and more realistic than the HP system , cool
But Will it be Fun? will it be worth it? does the player want to think about states or does the person prefer simple abstractions?
I take no sides here, if you can create a fun and easily understandable implentation of your new health system then great job, but will it in the end boil down to the same thing as HP as you try to simplify the complicated system of different areas of damage? And again will it be worth it?
If you can answer counter to all these questions then I think you have a great system going there and wish you good luck in its implementation.
[edited by - Daerax on March 31, 2003 10:31:29 PM]
Good concept, what I would do is modify them both. Example!
knight takes a leg hit of 5dmg, his leg armor has 3def, so he takes 2 points of legs dmg. Now depending how his current wound state, say he is lightly wounded. So he takes a neg speed and a Neg jump, neg sneak, neg attack roll(to hit), to the current wound state. So he takes another leg hit same one and its 3 dmg but the armor has a def rating of 5 so he takes no dmg, another round and he gets hit again. He takes 6 leg dmg so now lets say he has an open wound(3rd state) now his neg for each skill is decreased a lot... You can have as many states as you wish, as your char grows in levels he max leg dmg can increase so at level one he gets 10leg dmg, lvl two he gets 15leg dmg.. Same for other body parts. Also, you would have to think of a way to stomach trust( either make this rare or if it does happen it can effect your char in many ways, but maybe give him a a spcial skill of (Protect live) This would give him a high chance, high dmg blow for a few attacks. Anyway, really depends if its real time or turn based.
knight takes a leg hit of 5dmg, his leg armor has 3def, so he takes 2 points of legs dmg. Now depending how his current wound state, say he is lightly wounded. So he takes a neg speed and a Neg jump, neg sneak, neg attack roll(to hit), to the current wound state. So he takes another leg hit same one and its 3 dmg but the armor has a def rating of 5 so he takes no dmg, another round and he gets hit again. He takes 6 leg dmg so now lets say he has an open wound(3rd state) now his neg for each skill is decreased a lot... You can have as many states as you wish, as your char grows in levels he max leg dmg can increase so at level one he gets 10leg dmg, lvl two he gets 15leg dmg.. Same for other body parts. Also, you would have to think of a way to stomach trust( either make this rare or if it does happen it can effect your char in many ways, but maybe give him a a spcial skill of (Protect live) This would give him a high chance, high dmg blow for a few attacks. Anyway, really depends if its real time or turn based.
xMcBaiNx, we''ve decided that true realism isn''t the goal, we''re just trying to come up with a better way to represent a fighting/damage system. Really, I''d think that if two super-badass swordsmen went head-to-head, it would end with one very dead guy and one unscathed guy, although he would certainly be tired. But if you''re dealing with a slow idiot, you can polish them off in short oder and not even be winded. Five or six idiots, though, might catch you with a clumsy hit, and slightly injure you, or else get super lucky and chop your badass head off.
I kind of got this feeling in Halo, when you''re playing on Legendary. You can go out there and go wild on them, but as long as you get to cover before your shield is gone, and avoided the grenades, you could take a break, juice up, and jump back into the fray. But if you lost your concentration, and a grunt stuck a plasma grenade to you, or an elite gets you in a corner, you''re dead before you hit the ground. That''s fun. I''d like to see a game where you swordfight on equal footing with a guy.
The problem, of course, is that in an RPG, these things are all random numbers. I remember in Fallout when a guy with a minigun would magically bypass my augmented mech armor and cut me in half through three inches of super-alloy. That was crap. But it''s the balance that matters.
The thing we have to avoid is some peon getting that 1% chance to pre-empt a sword master. you should be able to get so good that there''s a 0% chance of a level 2 guy knifing you in the neck while you stare at him. I dunno. Good luck.
I kind of got this feeling in Halo, when you''re playing on Legendary. You can go out there and go wild on them, but as long as you get to cover before your shield is gone, and avoided the grenades, you could take a break, juice up, and jump back into the fray. But if you lost your concentration, and a grunt stuck a plasma grenade to you, or an elite gets you in a corner, you''re dead before you hit the ground. That''s fun. I''d like to see a game where you swordfight on equal footing with a guy.
The problem, of course, is that in an RPG, these things are all random numbers. I remember in Fallout when a guy with a minigun would magically bypass my augmented mech armor and cut me in half through three inches of super-alloy. That was crap. But it''s the balance that matters.
The thing we have to avoid is some peon getting that 1% chance to pre-empt a sword master. you should be able to get so good that there''s a 0% chance of a level 2 guy knifing you in the neck while you stare at him. I dunno. Good luck.
your post led me to another concept... backstabs... I mean... if someone really IS able to sneak behind someone... don''t tell me the target isnt dead... I especially hated that in BaldursGate (AD&D) Either REALLY implement it and make it harder, or don''t...
Jesus kids, lmao. You have managed to be witty and intelligent, arguing your perspective views civilly and effectively, while keeping my laughing the whole time. This thread should go down in the annals of GameDev; this thread should become the FAQ for the Lounge. I just want you all to know that Daddy is very proud of you boys and girls 
.
Back on topic. ElAntonious, I know where you''re coming from and feel your pain. This is a tough system to implement and an even harder one to justify to fellow designers.
The fact of the matter is that HPs are a way of abstracting what you are trying to accomplish, so many people say either a.) If it ain''t broke don''t fix it, or b.) You''ll just be using an underlying HP system in the end, so why bother?
Well, here is why (and I believe this well help your argument tremendously, as it has helped mine!). You can be the world''s greatest knight. You can be able to fight that Dragon one on one. You can scale a cliff in full armor. You can rescue the princess. You can go back to the Tavern and out drink everyone and not worry about any possible hangover. But here''s the catch: when you go up to your room and go to sleep and that snivveling, conniving little brat of a stable boy--who you were just a littl bit too arrogant towards when you tolad him to take care of your steed--creeps into your room and stabs you in the eye with his rusty little dagger, two things are going to happen. First, that dagger is going to conitnue forward and slip into your brain. Second, you ar going to die--quickly, painlessly, and silently.
No HP system ever gives stableboy billy a chance, no matter what the situation. Your system trys to compensate for the situational circumstances of an attack. That is a Good Thing (tm). That is also a Difficult Thing (trademark pending).
Giving the weaker characters a chance (even lottery chance) makes everything more realistic and generally more suspenseful. I think this owuld greatly enhance MMORPGs and detrivialize the hack and slash routine. It would also change the social dynamics greatly.
My currently underway system focuses on the conjunction of a fairly non-raising level of HPs coupled with realistic circumstances. The circumstances lead to attribute adjustments for things such as attack, defense, stamina, alertness, experience, etc. Lastly, equipment is factored greatly into it, as more experienced players have the ability to gather more exotic and powerful equipment than stableboy billy.
Let the flames begin!
The Tyr project is here.
.Back on topic. ElAntonious, I know where you''re coming from and feel your pain. This is a tough system to implement and an even harder one to justify to fellow designers.
The fact of the matter is that HPs are a way of abstracting what you are trying to accomplish, so many people say either a.) If it ain''t broke don''t fix it, or b.) You''ll just be using an underlying HP system in the end, so why bother?
Well, here is why (and I believe this well help your argument tremendously, as it has helped mine!). You can be the world''s greatest knight. You can be able to fight that Dragon one on one. You can scale a cliff in full armor. You can rescue the princess. You can go back to the Tavern and out drink everyone and not worry about any possible hangover. But here''s the catch: when you go up to your room and go to sleep and that snivveling, conniving little brat of a stable boy--who you were just a littl bit too arrogant towards when you tolad him to take care of your steed--creeps into your room and stabs you in the eye with his rusty little dagger, two things are going to happen. First, that dagger is going to conitnue forward and slip into your brain. Second, you ar going to die--quickly, painlessly, and silently.
No HP system ever gives stableboy billy a chance, no matter what the situation. Your system trys to compensate for the situational circumstances of an attack. That is a Good Thing (tm). That is also a Difficult Thing (trademark pending).
Giving the weaker characters a chance (even lottery chance) makes everything more realistic and generally more suspenseful. I think this owuld greatly enhance MMORPGs and detrivialize the hack and slash routine. It would also change the social dynamics greatly.
My currently underway system focuses on the conjunction of a fairly non-raising level of HPs coupled with realistic circumstances. The circumstances lead to attribute adjustments for things such as attack, defense, stamina, alertness, experience, etc. Lastly, equipment is factored greatly into it, as more experienced players have the ability to gather more exotic and powerful equipment than stableboy billy.
Let the flames begin!
The Tyr project is here.
OctDev, just read my backstab post, many systems include such stuff.... and I don't see why an HP system prevents you from implementing special situations. A system that allows walking doesn't prevent it from allowing running, right?
But anyway the fact is... is there anyone playing your game that will like being stabbed in their eye while they sleep? ...
That's a Bad Thing (tm)...
Important Rule #1, Don't penalise a player randomly when its not a CONSEQUENCE of his actions
[edited by - xMcBainx on March 31, 2003 10:51:24 PM]
But anyway the fact is... is there anyone playing your game that will like being stabbed in their eye while they sleep? ...
That's a Bad Thing (tm)...
Important Rule #1, Don't penalise a player randomly when its not a CONSEQUENCE of his actions
[edited by - xMcBainx on March 31, 2003 10:51:24 PM]
I guess it is a matter of perspective, and how the damage is assigned. I like the view point that damage is failry constant, and ability to sustain damge is fairly low, while ability to avoid damage increases. HP systems like the view point that the ability to sustain damage increases. And you like the view point that situationally, the ability to deal damage increases. I am fine with that, but I still think it would be difficult to gauge that correctly, short of adding in a Death blow. If one character has 150hp while another has 300hp, how do you determine if that lucky thrust that is the same injury to both (and is supposed to be horribly damaging but not quite lethal) is 145 or 295 points of damage? Either way, someone is not badly injured or someon is dead, so it isn''t a really good method to allow that type of situation, which I consider a realistic one that should be implemented.
Now, you could just skew the attack for each character, but if it is the same attack and the same injusry, you shouldn;t have to do that. It defeats the whole purpose of trying to add this dose of realism.
Make sense, or am I just starting to ramble?
The Tyr project is here.
Now, you could just skew the attack for each character, but if it is the same attack and the same injusry, you shouldn;t have to do that. It defeats the whole purpose of trying to add this dose of realism.
Make sense, or am I just starting to ramble?
The Tyr project is here.
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