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Xtremehobo

How to avoid going to church and Christianity discussion

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Did some quick research on Thermoluminescense dating.

Theromluminesce is useful in dating artifacts such as household items like pots.

Basically, "information" about radiation energy is stored in inorganic crystals at the time in which the radiation was absorbed. For instance, if a pot was fired, the crystals are "wiped clean" of information and the "archeological clock" starts anew. The information is in the form of excited "metastable" electron states. Over time, radiation energy from the environment is absorbed in the crystals. To date the artifact, it is heated a second time, and the energy built up from the buildup over time is released. The amount released light corresponds to the the time between the initial firing and the dating firing.

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Where was I trying to disprove christianity?

Anyways, the way they verify the techniques they use is by redundancy. You can measure dates of things by relative dating (ie, the layer of rock in which is was located. Then you verify that against other dating techniques, which then verify back against others.



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[edited by - CpMan on May 1, 2003 11:12:27 AM]

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"Over time, radiation energy from the environment is absorbed in the crystals."

"The amount released light corresponds to the the time between the initial firing and the dating firing."

That''s a neat trick. They must be psychic to know how much radiation was stored in Z amount of time. Especially since they''ve obviously never done tests in the real world for any amount of time close to 100,000 years for pots of various clay quality, firing quality, size, amount of clay used, density of the clay, ect ect ect.

Another fun example of how clueless "scientists" can be is the dating of Niagra falls. They determine where the falls were at certain points in history by things like shells and animals that they assume existed in the river that are now found along the banks. Because we know that nothing has ever taken anything from anywhere and dropped it somewhere else.

And how far back to you want to go? Maybe Niagra falls peeled away the earth like the skin off an apple?

Ben

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quote:

If I find two atoms of something with a half life of X years how in the world can you pretend to know it had 4 or 8 or 16 to start with?



Which points out your total ignorance of the techniques being used. You call others for not googling before shouting your mouth off, yet you are the one who thought we lived in an infinite universe and that it was impossible to tell how old something is from dating.

I''ll give a small hint to you: if we know the isotope a radioactive isotope will decay into, and we know the concentration of the stable isotopes in the body we are measuring, then guess what we can do, Sherlock?

quote:

Okay, so something''s got X atoms of something. You going to look at me with a straight face and tell me you know how many it had to start with?



To a point yes. You seem to think +- 100,000 atoms of something in a sample which contains hundreds of trillions is anything remarkable.

quote:

The erosion thing is harder to ignore. Over millions of years, water and air erode rocks, explaining the rocks we have seen. Oh, and glaciers, forgot about those. Guess you don''t believe glaciers shaped the landscape either. So even though geological formations can be explained very well with things like glaciers, volcanoes, tectonic plate movement, etc., you''ll just say "coincidence".



Don''t forget the huge stalagmites and stalactites in some caves.

quote:

I leave for one day and suddenly we''re talking about the creation myth called evolution.



It''s called a theory Kalvin, perhaps you''ve heard of them, seeing as you seem to pump lots of them out based on speculative tripe. It''s just as likely to be false as any other theory, yet we *have* observed it in action.

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Can you answer a few questions for me?

1) Do you accept the fact that I am not trying to challenge your religious beliefs?

2) Do you accept that I know I cannot disprove any religion and am not trying to?

3) Do you accept that you cannot disprove the THEORIES of evolution and most sciences because you have not the expertise to do so?

4) Do you accept that because you cannot disprove them, they are not any more right or wrong than they were before?

5) DO you accept that I cannot prove them, because I have not the expertise to do so?



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[edited by - CpMan on May 1, 2003 11:12:49 AM]

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"Why do you seem to think that every scientist is out to get you and Christianity,"

Because you''re an idiot who has doesn''t have the logical capacity to see that I''ve nowhere even hinted at such a stupid and ludicrous idea?

When all else fails make stupid baseless accusations. CGameProgrammer is a master of that one.

"Then you verify that against other dating techniques, which then verify back against others."

Which ALL rely on the answer to prove the answer. This is NOT THAT HARD. Garbage in, garbage out. Show me a 100,000 year repeated experiments with objects of known age to verify that the dating method works for that period of time.

They don''t exist. It''s flat out bogus by the scientific method. It''s therefore not science.

Ben

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quote:
Original post by KalvinB
"Over time, radiation energy from the environment is absorbed in the crystals."

"The amount released light corresponds to the the time between the initial firing and the dating firing."

That''s a neat trick. They must be psychic to know how much radiation was stored in Z amount of time. Especially since they''ve obviously never done tests in the real world for any amount of time close to 100,000 years for pots of various clay quality, firing quality, size, amount of clay used, density of the clay, ect ect ect.

Another fun example of how clueless "scientists" can be is the dating of Niagra falls. They determine where the falls were at certain points in history by things like shells and animals that they assume existed in the river that are now found along the banks. Because we know that nothing has ever taken anything from anywhere and dropped it somewhere else.

And how far back to you want to go? Maybe Niagra falls peeled away the earth like the skin off an apple?

Ben


That wasn''t the point about the crystals. When originally fired, they are wiped clean..all energy is released. Then, over time, there is a build up again. Then, upon the last firing, the dating firing, they measure the amount of energy released and make an estimate based on the material and how fast energy would be absorbed of how old the object is. Given that fire would wipe it clean again, it''s safe to say they can only underestimate.



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quote:
Original post by KalvinB
Which is obviously futile since you admitted yourself you don''t know how they work.



Don''t know how which ones work? We''ve discussed around three diferent dating techniques here, yet you like to clump them together.

Perhaps you could explain to us how the process of radiometric dating works, seeing as you seem to be such an expert on it, and able to dismiss the results as being absurd.

quote:

You just blindly trust that the scientists wouldn''t lie to you.



You blindly trust that God and the Bible won''t lie to you. What''s your point? At least science has some sort of vetting process.

quote:

Your entire argument against christianity relied on "paradoxes" and "catch-22"''s.



Whereas your whole argument against science is based upon ignorance.

quote:

So explain this one: why do all the dating methods depend on the answer to prove the answer? There were obviously no scientists around setting up million year experiments now were there?



In my world, they don''t. Perhaps in your world they use different dating techniques? Care to elaborate?

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quote:

That wasn''t the point about the crystals. When originally fired, they are wiped clean..all energy is released. Then, over time, there is a build up again. Then, upon the last firing, the dating firing, they measure the amount of energy released and make an estimate based on the material and how fast energy would be absorbed of how old the object is. Given that fire would wipe it clean again, it''s safe to say they can only underestimate.



Don''t bother wasting your time with him. His circular arguments are enough to drive anyone insane, and his tone of replies are enough to put off anyone who actually knows what they are talking about off.

Perhaps one day he may progress his knowledge past simple high school chemistry and physics.

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EDIT



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An opensource, cross platform, cross API game development library.

[edited by - CpMan on May 1, 2003 11:13:16 AM]

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