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add_ai

Best tips for Game Design!

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...........You sound like a casual gamer.

Destruction, mayhem, and eye candy are the key elements for a game to be commercially successfully in America.

What happen to the industry? Waaaay too many companies don''t give a....... about the quality of a game. They just care if a game will sell well or not. From my observation, I''ve been able to categorize game designers into three categories.

Commercial Designer: Don''t care about quality, wants quantity sales. Ultimate purpose is to brain-wash millions of casual gamers world-wide and partially responsible for many kids in the American culture to be more violent.

Hardcore Designer: Loves his job. Doesn''t care about the money. Would probably stop designing games until hes 90.....

Weird Designer(I''m in this category): Weird designers are the ones that come up with the very unique ideas. These are also the guys who usually revolutionize the industry and tries new things. Sort of like a hardcore designer but just has great ideas most of the time and financial success are their last priority.

Hope you read this.

"....If heaven was around the way.......a fiend who wants to get high, would he stop smoking? Knowing on his own two feet we could just stroll in......and escape from craziness and I bet you theres a heaven for an atheist." - Nasir *NaZ* Jones(courtesy of "God''s Son")

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Your message was insightful, I don't want you to think of me as a "casual gamer". I am an 18 year old begginer programmer, who has a passion for programming. I often myself programming for 4-6 hours a day, and I do it for fun.

I would put myself in the Hardcore Designer and the Wierd Designer Category. I care a little to much about the quality. I am currently making a Yahtzee game for a class I will send it to you when it is completed.

[edited by - add_ai on May 3, 2003 1:31:30 PM]

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quote:
Original post by Trigomaq
Commercial Designer: Don''t care about quality, wants quantity sales. Ultimate purpose is to brain-wash millions of casual gamers world-wide and partially responsible for many kids in the American culture to be more violent.



Either you´re trying to start an argument or you don´t have a clue what you´re talking about. Most commercial designers work themselves up a very, very long way before being able to do what they like on a grand scale. You don´t desing big games if you´re not loving it, for that the hours are too bad and the pay is too unspectacular.
A commercial designer has to be able to do many things, and of course making a game that´s fun for the biggest possible audience is one of these. Making games costs money, a really, really big amount of money. And if you want your company to be there next year you have to make sure that the game sells, and ultimately the best-selling games are those that can be enjoyed by the largest possible audience. And how exactly is that a bad thing?
I´m not defending the number of crap games out there, there certainly is a lot of room for improvement. But these improvements have nothing to do with brainwashing or violent children - I´m not going to start that debate all over again.


Now, "Mr. Weird Designer going to revolutionise the industry", exactly what are your experiences with game designers so far? I know no commercial game designer who isn´t in it for the love, and all of those have lovely unique ideas they would love to see realised.
Unfortunately it´s not about what the game designer wants, that´s the difficult part of the job - you have to be able to look at what´s required, look at what resources you´ve got and make the best game possible from that.

So, in response to the original post: destruction and mayhem, if correctly done, can be loads of fun - sure it´s an easy way but if it fits the game then go for it! And eye candy, no matter how the self-proclaimed hardcore gamers seem to pick on it, is a very important factor for a game of today. You don´t necessarily have to be the best of the best, but if your games optics fall below a certain threshhold then a large portion of your audience won´t even bother to look at it.

The most important requisite for a game designer is a very solid connection to reality - that applies to things like your audience or your resources, but also the fact that sometimes you have to see that your ideas and theories were not as good as you thought them to be, and that the radical new design you´re trying to implement has flaws that might eventually kill the whole product. Sure, sometimes it´s difficult to kick several hundred pages of design into the bin but that´s how life goes. If you can´t do that you won´t be a happy designer.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
You left out the most important type of game programmer.

The Pragmatic Game Programmer.

The programmer who knows when to write commercial games, and when to concentrate on personal idealistic projects.

Highly satisfying and pays the bills. :D

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Its not the commerical game designer that doesn''t care about they game, believe me they do. What screws over games are the suits that push the products out the doors when they''re not ready, because the suits are concerned about one thing, getting a return on their investment of at least equal or greater value. They have formulas that predict this, and the very though of losing any money appalls them.

Perfect example of this is electronic arts. The biggest hellhole of gaming in the world. Industry controlling jerks.
--------------------------
Now to the destruction and mayhem bit. Yes Destruction and mayhem do sell a lot of games, yes there often is more clever game design than that; but none of these things are what makes a game great.

Great games come from solid story with recurring elements that make the player feel as though they are actually in the game world.

Case in point, the plant monster in half life, the man in the suit, the marines. Half life is a brilliant example of good game design because of its story. Granted the game goes to poop once you hit the alien worlds; but aside from that its got decent overall design. The plant, the helicopter lots of little touches. PLUS destruction and mayhem. Its just an example of how great story elements really set a game appart and make it that much better.

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quote:
Original post by Bennettovia
Its not the commerical game designer that doesn''t care about they game, believe me they do. What screws over games are the suits that push the products out the doors when they''re not ready, because the suits are concerned about one thing, getting a return on their investment of at least equal or greater value. They have formulas that predict this, and the very though of losing any money appalls them.

*cough*millions spent on Daikatana*cough*
It''s tempting to think that "designers know best", but at the end of the day, they''re spending someone else''s money, and don''t always come up with the goods even when they are given as much time as they want. So there has to be a limit somewhere. Some of it is the fault of development teams who are unable to set out and stick to an accurate timescale.

quote:
Great games come from solid story with recurring elements that make the player feel as though they are actually in the game world.

You obviously have a very narrow idea of what makes games great.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL Docs | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost
Asking Questions | Organising code files | My stuff | Tiny XML | STLPort]

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okay, not all designers know best, thats a valid point. But they do care the most about the quality of their games, or at least they should. Basically what I''m saying is designer guy at EA doesn''t want his product to suck and has more design to it than one might think, he''s not necessarily out for the bottom dollar.

As for Romero, well its a shame because Deus Ex and Anachronox were great games, yet he pushed daikatana.......

SUPERFLY!!!

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quote:
[quote]Great games come from solid story with recurring elements that make the player feel as though they are actually in the game world.

You obviously have a very narrow idea of what makes games great.


whoops, I also omited premise (a-la civilization etc), that also doesn''t apply to multiplayer either per say.

Bsically once a genres established to make a great game you need to have either killer story or a killer new premise to the genre (or even a ressurected killer premise).

Take for example serious sam. Story, whatever. Genre: First Person shooter. The FPS genre is well established, just running around killing stuff doesn''t cut it. Take SOF2 for example, completely linear, the only cutting edge factor is its gore. Now with serious same, the ressurected the killer premise of legions upon legions upon legions of bad guys, and they had the screaming headless guys. Thats what made that game work.

Civilization. Genre: Turned Based Strategy, a well established genre, but the premise of building a civilization to stand the test of time rules, and the game is phenomenal.

The list goes on and on; but you will find the trend that all great games either have an amazing premise, amazing story, or forged a new genre. Those are the primary elements of a great game. Call it narrow, thats fine cite me an example of a great game that does not have one of those three traits.

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While I was writing my original post I had Sony, Squaresoft and EA in my mind...........

The fact is: video game production is getting better, but the purpose of production is getting morally worser by the years especially in America.

The "suits" don''t give a crap if a game is good or not. They just want to make a profit out of it. Theres VERY FEW original games out there made by American companies(I''m referring to the video game industry, I don''t play PC games). This is bad.

Since the Japanese live in a backwards society(in our view), weird ideas are naturally to them. That would be one of the primary reasons why Asias are so unusually gifted in the arts.

I want to see a great/original game made by an American!!!





"....If heaven was around the way.......a fiend who wants to get high, would he stop smoking? Knowing on his own two feet we could just stroll in......and escape from craziness and I bet you theres a heaven for an atheist." - Nasir *NaZ* Jones(courtesy of "God''s Son")

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Trigomaq
I want to see a great/original game made by an American!!!



The Sims? Diablo? Doom? The MMORPG genre itself? If I''m not mistaken, these were all pretty "great" and at the time "original".

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quote:
Original post by Trigomaq
While I was writing my original post I had Sony, Squaresoft and EA in my mind...........

...

Since the Japanese live in a backwards society(in our view), weird ideas are naturally to them. That would be one of the primary reasons why Asias are so unusually gifted in the arts.

So you''re trying to say that Square makes ''weird'' and unusual games? That''s funny, cos many of their games look identical to me; clichéd story, mindless levelling, overemphasis on graphical effects in the combat engines.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL Docs | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost
Asking Questions | Organising code files | My stuff | Tiny XML | STLPort]

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
The Sims? Diablo? Doom? The MMORPG genre itself? If I''m not mistaken, these were all pretty "great" and at the time "original".


I wouldn''t say Diablo is original. I would say it''s great, but its concept, IMO, is quite old.

Black and White, and the "God Games" Genre, IMO, is a very new genre, along with the young MMORPG genre.

Your "Hardcore" and "Weird" designers usually end up being quite the same thing, unless your saying weird designers don''t like their work or that hardcore designers don''t have new ideas.



- Rob Loach
Current Project: Go Through Object-Oriented Programming in C++ by Robert Lafore

"Do or do not. There is no try."
- Yoda

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quote:
Original post by Trigomaq
Since the Japanese live in a backwards society(in our view), weird ideas are naturally to them. That would be one of the primary reasons why Asias are so unusually gifted in the arts.


That is the most ridiculous statement I''ve read. What makes you say that?



- Rob Loach
Current Project: Go Through Object-Oriented Programming in C++ by Robert Lafore

"Do or do not. There is no try."
- Yoda

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quote:
Original post by Kylotan
So you're trying to say that Square makes 'weird' and unusual games? That's funny, cos many of their games look identical to me; clichéd story, mindless levelling, overemphasis on graphical effects in the combat engines.



Kylotan...spot on.

Diablo? Not at all original. Go play NetHack.

The Sims? Originalness. Yeah.

Doom? Wolf3D, bub.

[edited by - Edward Ropple on May 5, 2003 3:32:49 PM]

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quote:
Original post by add_ai
I recently discovered that destruction and mayhem are the two key elements to making any great game! Not to mention eye candy.

These elements have nothing to do with a great game. They will make a game sell, perhaps. Saying that violence and eye-candy make a great game is like saying that "War" is a fantastic card game if you play it on a gold-plated deck of cards with pictures of dead bodies inscribed on them. However you play it, "War" still sucks.
quote:
Original post by Trigomaq
The fact is: video game production is getting better, but the purpose of production is getting morally worser by the years especially in America.


I've noticed the use of grammar getting "worser" in America too.
quote:
Original post by Trigomaq
The "suits" don't give a crap if a game is good or not.

[sarcasm]Yeah! It's all their fault! They're all the same! Fo' real![/sarcasm]
quote:
Original post by Trigomaq
They just want to make a profit out of it. Theres VERY FEW original games out there made by American companies(I'm referring to the video game industry, I don't play PC games). This is bad.

Ya gotta be f%&kin' kiddin' me.

- Jay


[ Here, taste this ]


[edited by - coderx75 on May 5, 2003 5:46:39 PM]

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Bennettovia
he''s talkin'' console


Umm, last I checked The Sims went to all of the "new" consoles, Diablo went to Playstation, Doom went to the GBA, and EQ put out a version on the PS2.

And even if they didn''t come out on console, what different would that have made? Just because it''s on PC means it doesn''t count? Boy, that''s narrow-minded game design if I''ve ever heard it.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Rob Loach
I wouldn''t say Diablo is original. I would say it''s great, but its concept, IMO, is quite old.

Black and White, and the "God Games" Genre, IMO, is a very new genre, along with the young MMORPG genre.



If Diablo, at the time of it''s inception, wasn''t original by your definition, then how can anything be original? Everything would just be a "concept" that was spawned from a previous idea, or built upon it.

As for Black and White being a new genre, have you forgotten Populous (by Molyneux, of course)? Sim City? Those were "god games", and both were playable on the original NES. That''s not "very new".

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Trigomaq
Theres VERY FEW original games out there made by American companies(I''m referring to the video game industry, I don''t play PC games). This is bad.



Uhh, what, by your definition, is the "video game industry"? So when a company makes a console game, they belong to this "video game industry", but the moment they start making the same game for the PC, they are no longer part of the video game industry -- have I got that right? I''m just trying to figure out the logic here.

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quote:
Uhh, what, by your definition, is the "video game industry"? So when a company makes a console game, they belong to this "video game industry", but the moment they start making the same game for the PC, they are no longer part of the video game industry -- have I got that right? I''m just trying to figure out the logic here.
Some people take the approach that "video game industry" != "computer game industry". They would both then fall under some other umbrella category, like "game industry" or "electronic game industry".

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I, personally, don''t think that the Japanese are living in a backwards society. BUT, through the lens of American society, most Americans think that the Japanese are "backwards" but I don''t.

If I asked you to list all of the original games made by Americans you would give me a short list. Short list.......compared to the Japanese list.

I''ll stop referring to this business as the "video game industry" since 66% of you don''t know what I''m talking about. How does the "console market" sound to you?

Let me re-state my point. The console market is all about business now. Big companies(American; most) no longer care about the quality of their games, they just care about the quantity sales. The "suits" want to profit from the games, they honestly don''t care anymore. Activision and EA are perfect examples. Activision published like 4 Tony Hawk sequels and all of the games are generally the same. It''s like the designer didn''t took the time to try and change the game system around, its like they clone the game and added new characters/levels without any effort.




"....If heaven was around the way.......a fiend who wants to get high, would he stop smoking? Knowing on his own two feet we could just stroll in......and escape from craziness and I bet you theres a heaven for an atheist." - Nasir *NaZ* Jones(courtesy of "God''s Son")

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Nekkid chixxor blows stuf up.

You can sell that any number of times you wish; it never goes out of style.

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