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why only talk about designing video games?

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there are many games out there that work completely independently from any sort of video display or computer chip of any sort. magic the gathering, warhammer 40k, dungeons an dragons, yu-gi-oh, monopoly, risk, stratego. the list can go on and on. these games usually have a tendancy to inspire huge complex video games off their rule sets and those usually tend to be exceedingly good video games due to their ingenuity in gameplay design. when designing a video game why not create a board game out of it or a card game out of it. something simple that can be understood and played using only the materials at hand and your mind. with a base rule set thats simple and easy to understand, a game engine can then begin to be developed around it, intergrating detail management and alot of tedius systems that humans don''t like doing. this way you can take your fun to play initial rule set and enhance it with the power of a computer thus creating a rich fulfilling game experience. hell you could even start taking design principles from video game creation and somehow apply them into other forms of game design. a whole new market is only beginning to see the light of the general public and that is trading card games. numerous games played through cards have enjoyed much success and the great thing about these markets are people keep buying your cards as long as you keep putting them out. the success of strategy based board games in european countries is way higher than over here in the americas. board games back east tend to be more uniquely designed and require alot more thinking and strategy. just a lil rant to see if i can inspire any sparks of imagination. bon apetite.

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Quite right, man!
I was just thinking about converting my old (and unfinished) computer game into a tabletop one. I believe it would be nice if people posted about it as well - but maybe there should be a separate part of the forum for that kind of stuff. Ask the moderators, you should.
So again, good idea. Maybe I''ll even post about my game if I feel like doing it.

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Feel free to discuss any type of game, be it a computer game, board game card game, etc.

It''s true this forum is rather biased towards computer games, but it needn''t be that way. In any case, creating a board game, table top game or pen and paper game is also a good way of testing out ideas for a computer game before having to do any coding.

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quote:
Original post by Sandman
In any case, creating a board game, table top game or pen and paper game is also a good way of testing out ideas for a computer game before having to do any coding.


A friend of mine once created a small dungeon-game on the PC and tested his game mechanics and rules on a small board - which was probably more fun for us than the game itself later...

------------------------------
"There are only two things that are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. And I''m not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

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My RTS design is actually based on a PnP Strategy game I created. Unfortunately I haven''t worked on it much in a couple of years but the few times I played it out it was getting quite interesting! Of course I still plan to go ahead with both the PnP version and Video Game version (there''s a book I''m doing on the story as well at some point in the near future!

It is a good way to calculate different situations and evaluate rules, as well as for some pre-game testing. It don''t work for everything though

- Chris

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Guest Anonymous Poster
You two are quite correct since at the age of 14 I have been writing board games,trading card game title ideas, animation story board scripts and video game layouts for both table top and video games.I am currently working on several of these ideas now and still been working on these projects since 99.I worked at a nearby cemetery and had came up with an idea for a new survival horror board game back in 99 and now its 2003.The idea of the game became so big I enjoyed it so much.The entire blueprints of each city has no room in my living room area nor the bedrooms because the pages take up so much space.But the interesting is that I had enjoyed it so much I kept building on to the main story which works out quite nicely.Through out the years of my own experience I had come up with a neat little guide line to follow just as anyone would read a book.

Main title
Chapters
Main story line
History
Timeline(optional)
Characters w/ storylines
Walkthrough
Enemies w/ attack and weaknesses
Subbosses w/ attack and weakness
Bosses w/ attack and weakness
Map of Area/Locations
Weapons
Armor
Items
Accessories
End/Continuation Main storyline
Credits
End Main Title

Note: You can change or add anything you need or dont want through out this guide line. Its all up to you the creator,designer,writer on how your/team project will
come out of the process stage for home play or market stage.

Good Luck all of you and see you in the gaming future some day.

Jumping Lizard

Cowboy082246@aol.com

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Guest Anonymous Poster
I forgot the other project I have been working on.
Its the trading card game which has also been worked on
since 99.At first I had nearly completed my trading card game to find out the 6,500 cards werent enough,well it was but I had also grown that upto 15,764 cards for a major trading card game which is still in the works.See if you have the passion ,creativity,senscere, and love of your projects to see the entire out come of it all then you know that it also takes endless hours and total concetration and patience for any idea to come to life.Ask my wife lol she can tell you on how I am always up doing something or even at work working on all of my projects. You the designer needs to make time. It does become tedius at times and you think it will never end with all of the ideas you would love to see but trust me if you work on your ideas and concepts you can always out do yourself after the first game or project you have done.If you have an idea or suggestion for any game title ( WRITE IT DOWN ). Take a note book or some paper with you at work or school or anywhere you feel the need to jot some ideas done.This way when you reread your materials you can begin fresh, new and original.

Have fun once again and good luck to all of the beginners and professional game writers.

Jumping Lizard

Cowboy082246@aol.com

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quote:
Original post by Sandman
It''s true this forum is rather biased towards computer games, but it needn''t be that way. In any case, creating a board game, table top game or pen and paper game is also a good way of testing out ideas for a computer game before having to do any coding.




Hey, you admins/moderators aren''t helping-- all of the forum titles are video-game oriented :-)

Sersiously though, I think it''s a damn good idea to make your rules more robust by trying them in a different medium. Like Infused mentioned, things like Warhammer and Magic are damn good sets of rules that translated well to computer games. And since these systems already have a pretty devout world of players, the cross-medium version already has name recognition-- which is VERY important in the business.

Here''s a BIIIIIG word of caution though: Not all systems will readily translate well. MANY cross-medium versions of games have FAILED MISERABLY. AD&D''s card game, perhaps the Everquest narrative RPG (though I''ve never played it), and COUNTLESS other popular movies/videogames that they''ve written a dumb narrative RPG for.. E.T.''s Atari game, Street Fighter and Mario Bros movie, the Final Fantasy movie (well, not miserably), and many more movie/game conversions that suck (http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/moviegames/), Vampire: The Masquerade (though that wasn''t the rules/system''s fault)... Some of which are not the fault of the rules themselves translating poorly, it''s the fault of the people doing the translating. Sometimes they just make poor programmatic decisions, sometimes they change the rules in a way that throws off the game balance and they think they don''t have to worry about game balance ''cause the original designers worked all that out already, and sometimes they change something that simply makes all those devoted fanboys go "What the hell where they thinking!?"

Here''s another problem: Games need to be designed with their medium in mind. For instance, D&D was designed to be a pen-and-paper system. Therefore they made all of the calculations simple, and widdled combat down to one or two simple dice rolls for one "round" of fighting-- when combat is WAYYYYY more complex than that. (See my thread http://gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=159426 ) I totally agree with this ''cause having to make even 10 dice rolls and calculations for one second of combat would be horrible. Same thing with Magic, since you don''t really worry about hp, str, dex, stamina, etc for each character.

Unfortunately, most RPG makers rely on these formulas that had been designed for pen-and-paper games. Sure, they work. But couldn''t they be a lot better??? Of COURSE! These are computers! They have HUGE amounts of calculation capabilities where 10 calculations for each swing of a sword is no big deal! Sure I''m not advocating using calculus to determine bludgeoning damage, but you get the idea.

Warhammer might be a slightly different story... Especially in large tabletop 40k battles, I''ve found it quite tedious at times to keep track of every unit''s health, equipment, etc. Good thing they''ve taken the stance that every unit (except Heros) have the same stats. Good way to simplify. Warhammer, IMO, would tranfer well to an RTS. Having never played the Warhammer video games, I can''t if/how they screwed it up. :-) Though the scores on ign are 5-7, so they''re probably not bad, just not as good of a story and translation as they could be.





So you have to be careful... Translation has to be done right, rules have to be tailored to the medium, but too much changing of the rules is going to ruin the system. Damn, I can''t reply to a topic without writing a novel... :-(

-Desco-

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Um... I hate to be the one to point this out, but the reason we only talk about designing video/computer games in here is because the entire SITE is about video game development. If the site were about making other kinds of games it would make sense to talk about designing non-electronic entertainment; but since Gamedev.net is a Video game development site, it would be kind of silly to suddenly have a forum about designing tabletop RPGs, card games, board games, and so forth, don''t you think?

****************************************

Brian Lacy
ForeverDream Studios

Comments? Questions? Curious?
brian@foreverdreamstudios.com

"I create. Therefore I am."

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My whole game project has been focused on a three tier layer. A table top miniature wargame, the computer game version, and some kind of text media (not sure if it will be online, book, graphic novel, etc).

I have to admit, I admired the Wachowski brothers for trying to tie-in the Matrix movies with their game. I also give kudos to Battletech and Heavy Gear which both spawned computer games (and started out as board games). Actually, in both Battletech''s and Heavy Gear''s case, I preferred playing the tabletop versions to the computer versions.

And when it comes to roleplaying games, computer RPG''s simply can''t hold a candle to PPRPG''s. So I tend to agree that sometimes non-computer games get overlooked. I think for strategy and RPG''s in particular, it''s very handy and useful to create paper and pen versions to prototype things out. Another thing that PnP games do which I think is a good idea is that it almost foces the designer to think of the game setting first, and then gameplay second. For instance, in PPRPG''s, you have to think more than, "I''ll make a fantasy RPG", because that''s just too generic. In order to differentiate PPRPG''s, you have to develop and flesh out the world, its cultures, races, weapons, history and so on and so forth. From these gameplay elements often come into better focus. I find it very diffucult to imagine gameplay elements without first understanding the game world (and its feel) first.

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quote:
Original post by Desco
all of the forum titles are video-game oriented :-)
Quite sad, but it''s true.

One reason why I design games mainly for video games. It is hard to get the materials for non-video games. Paper and pen are very easy to get. But when we are talking about 500 trading cards...who are going to make them? Who are going to write the description of every single card?

Let''s talk about board games. The board can be easily made out of paper or anything solid enough as a platform. You can make the dice from papers, although the randomness will be greatly reduced. But what about the tokens? What are you going to use for tokens? Coins? Plastic toys? If you want to add realism to your games (i.e, you want a real Dragon-looking token instead of an eraser, that you think is a dragon, that sits on the board) it''s going to cost money.

Making everything on computers is so much easier. You can adjust the size of the board anytime you like. Computers are good for calculations, so you don''t actually have to worry about numbers. Computers are also good for reproductions. If you want to distribute your card game to your friends, you have to bring it to a printing company, and I don''t really know how much it''s gonna cost, but I believe they want something like mass production (1000 copies) instead of making just 10 copies of your card game. On computers, copy and paste.

However, it all depends on the game design itself. If you can come up with ideas that only requires materials that is easy to get (such as pen, papers, coins), and the game is fun, why not? But for me, I tend to think about design that requires complex calculations, so I use computers.

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