Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

rhesus

to Yann L strange question

Recommended Posts

you are doing the engine for a game but why dont you replace the existing rendering engine with ogre. ignore that there is no reason for this (ogre being only a rendering engine without collision detection sound etc) but say how you expect it would function.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by rhesus
you are doing the engine for a game but why dont you replace the existing rendering engine with ogre. ignore that there is no reason for this (ogre being only a rendering engine without collision detection sound etc) but say how you expect it would function.


Like any better idea.Yann''s engine will have no problem to knockout that dumm Ogre engine.Besides to use other people''s work in something shows the lack of experience of you.Now hard to write that all by yourself...if you only try...

"You losers better learn...NOONE CONTROLS OUR GOD DAMN LIFE!!!" - MANOWAR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
From what I''ve seen and read Yann uses a lot of algorithms and methods that might look "exotic" when compared to the ones used in general engines such as Ogre. I think their game uses all features of the engine, and other engines probably don''t provide these (unless you code them in...).

ToohrVyk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yes the idea is bad i know that but i wait interested what he says about it... but using other peoples work does not show lack of experience, hmm libaries? OPENGL? hah not even the most simple programs are fully self written...

[edited by - rhesus on July 6, 2003 12:30:42 PM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by rhesus
yes the idea is bad i know that but i wait interested what he says about it... but using other peoples work does not show lack of experience, hmm libaries? OPENGL? hah not even a the most simple programs are fully self written...


You get me wrong here.I mean stuff like the Nehe base code,other peoples BMP/TGA loaders and such junk.

"You losers better learn...NOONE CONTROLS OUR GOD DAMN LIFE!!!" - MANOWAR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think my stance on using 'other peoples code' is clear: if it makes you more productive, and if licensing conditions are clear, then using libraries is a good thing. If you want to learn, you'd better code everything yourself. That's good to gain experience. But in production code, reinventing the wheel is not a good idea. A good programmer is not only defined by how well he can reinvent everything, but even more by how well he can reliably combine existing support code and libraries with his own.

And about my engine: well, no publicly available engine I am aware of (neither free nor commercial) offered the features and performance characteristics we needed. Ergo: we did our own. Ogre is a nice engine, nothing against it, but it wans't up to our requirements.

On the other hand, if Ogre/Torque engine/etc fit your needs, then use them. Unless you really want to write a 3D engine, especially as a learning experience, using third party engines will definitely speed up your production process. In our game, we also use lots of third party libs: zlib, libjpeg, Vorbis, OpenGL, OpenAL, etc. No need to rewrite everything.

quote:

You get me wrong here.I mean stuff like the Nehe base code,other peoples BMP/TGA loaders and such junk.


Well, you know, if you are writing a full featured commercial grade 3D engine, then you'll have other problems than some base code or image loader And it becomes even harder to actually use other peoples code in your own, because it will probably not fit into your system skeleton. Making it fit will almost always require more time than writing your own, and is far less reliable. Exception are well established libraries, of course.


[edited by - Yann L on July 6, 2003 12:57:41 PM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
my code is a bad mess and the compiler always complains about something which i then try to correct so i am staying out of those things. lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How is OpenAL working out for you? It looks a bit... spare compared to DirectSound. While the simple API is definitely nice, it seems like it may be too simple -- and I thought it wasn''t being developed anymore?

Sorry, just curious as I was toying around with working on a sound system. I really wanted to go with OpenAL, but DirectSound just looks so much more flexible and powerful (though more cost in time to implement a system on top of).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:


Original post by Yann L

Well, you know, if you are writing a full featured commercial grade 3D engine, then you''ll have other problems than some base code or image loader And it becomes even harder to actually use other peoples code in your own, because it will probably not fit into your system skeleton. Making it fit will almost always require more time than writing your own, and is far less reliable. Exception are well established libraries, of course.




It''s ok with me i''m not using outer junks anyway.We''re coding the stuff for our engine completely by ourselfs and were glad with it.Just want to say something to lazy programmers.Like doing your own system to run the API will take you a lilie bit more time than to use the outer junks but it will teach you a LOT more.Of course one shoud only know how to link to a library and include a header or two

"You losers better learn...NOONE CONTROLS OUR GOD DAMN LIFE!!!" - MANOWAR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yann - I''ve been away for a couple of months, what''s the latest on your game? Last I heard the engine was done and you were using it for non-game software to get money to publish the game. Any change? Have you thought about licensing your engine out by any chance?



Read about my game, project #1
NEW (18th December)2 new screenshots, one from the engine and one from the level editor



John 3:16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by BrianL
How is OpenAL working out for you? It looks a bit... spare compared to DirectSound. While the simple API is definitely nice, it seems like it may be too simple -- and I thought it wasn''t being developed anymore?


No, it''s not developed anymore - because it is finished I personally am not involved in the development of our sound system, but from what I saw (heared), it works pretty well.

quote:

Sorry, just curious as I was toying around with working on a sound system. I really wanted to go with OpenAL, but DirectSound just looks so much more flexible and powerful (though more cost in time to implement a system on top of).


As I said, I can''t really give an informed opinion here. But OpenAL is up to our requirements. On top of that, we can''t use DSound directly, since we develop under Linux.

quote:

Yann - I''ve been away for a couple of months, what''s the latest on your game? Last I heard the engine was done and you were using it for non-game software to get money to publish the game.


Yep, that''s what we are currently doing. Right now, we have a couple of nice contracts, and more to come. Only problem so far, is that we are too few to handle all the work. We get more demand than we can handle. I guess we need to recruit some more people in the near future. If our finances work out as expected, we should have the money for our game by end of the year, or early 2004. *crosses fingers*

quote:

Have you thought about licensing your engine out by any chance?


Yes, we actually do. We''re currently designing the SDK (not easy...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cool. Given that your graphics engine has been complete for what seems like an age, aren''t you worried that by the time you get money to publish it''ll be out of date? It feels like about a year from engine completion to publication is quite long - obviously there must be some delay but it sounds like the game side has just been sitting around for 6 months waiting for cash - or are you continually tweaking the engine as new hardware becomes announced?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
"In our game, we also use lots of third party libs: zlib, libjpeg, Vorbis, OpenGL, OpenAL, etc. No need to rewrite everything."

I think it would be very hard, not to mention pointless and maybe dumb, to try to write your own code that does what these great libraries do. I don''t consider myself any less a programmer for using good, stable, free libraries.

Cutting and pasting code is a different story.. Rarely do I see anything I would even want to cut and paste, except for a line or two here and there from the documetations.

Yann I am a big fan. If you end up having some kind of small developer/small company license option you know I''d be having it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Yann L
quote:
Original post by BrianL
How is OpenAL working out for you? It looks a bit... spare compared to DirectSound. While the simple API is definitely nice, it seems like it may be too simple -- and I thought it wasn''t being developed anymore?


No, it''s not developed anymore - because it is finished I personally am not involved in the development of our sound system, but from what I saw (heared), it works pretty well.


Err.... sorry Yann, but you''re wrong on that one (doesn''t happen too often, does it ). OpenAL is not finished (and will not be anytime soon). It''s being continuously developped and extended, as seen in Creative Labs'' OpenAL page. In particular, check out the interview with one of the developers (top link). He specifically says that OpenAL is being updated all the time.

quote:

Sorry, just curious as I was toying around with working on a sound system. I really wanted to go with OpenAL, but DirectSound just looks so much more flexible and powerful (though more cost in time to implement a system on top of).



OpenAL currently supports DirectSound (it has a fallback to it, and possibly some direct support as well) and EAX.

Michael K.,
Co-designer and Graphics Programmer of "The Keepers"



We come in peace... surrender or die!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by technobot
Err.... sorry Yann, but you''re wrong on that one (doesn''t happen too often, does it ). OpenAL is not finished (and will not be anytime soon). It''s being continuously developped and extended, as seen in Creative Labs'' OpenAL page. In particular, check out the interview with one of the developers (top link). He specifically says that OpenAL is being updated all the time.


I stand corrected. I thought that the development cycle was complete and locked when Loki went down. It''s good to know, that it is being actively updated.

quote:

Cool. Given that your graphics engine has been complete for what seems like an age, aren''t you worried that by the time you get money to publish it''ll be out of date? It feels like about a year from engine completion to publication is quite long - obviously there must be some delay but it sounds like the game side has just been sitting around for 6 months waiting for cash - or are you continually tweaking the engine as new hardware becomes announced?


Well, that''s basically the situation - the game side is indeed sitting around waiting for cash. But the engine itself is very open and modular - it is based on individual shader classes. What that means, is that you can easily create new shaders and effects, supporting the newest card generations, without any major trouble. As long as the basic structure of 3D hardware doesn''t change (eg. a sudden switch to full realtime raytracing would probably break it ) You don''t even have to touch the engine core, just write your new shader(s), compile as a DLL, done. It''s actually a nice thing to do, when I''m bored: writing a new shader for the engine Currently, I have over 150... Lots of them pretty useless, experimental and other weird stuff though.

quote:

If you end up having some kind of small developer/small company license option you know I''d be having it!


In the longer run, I''m pretty sure we will. In a first time, we need to get our investments back. Eventually, after a few years, we plan to GPL it (Carmack leads the way )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by neurokaotix
quote:
Original post by Mihail121
...Yann''s engine will have no problem to knockout that dumm Ogre engine...


Ogre isn''t dumm, cocksucker.



James Simmons
MindEngine Development
http://medev.sourceforge.net


Hey the brainwashed boy...maybe if you sit on your butt and try to programm a little bit isntead of watching free tours of the porno sites you might be able to code something with little efford that totaly beats the stupid ogre engine.

"You losers better learn...NOONE CONTROLS OUR GOD DAMN LIFE!!!" - MANOWAR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Yann L

You don''t even have to touch the engine core, just write your new shader(s), compile as a DLL, done. It''s actually a nice thing to do, when I''m bored: writing a new shader for the engine Currently, I have over 150... Lots of them pretty useless, experimental and other weird stuff though.


Are the shaders API independent, or would you have to write one for each renderer to achieve the same effect? i.e. is the shader system part of the engine core, or part of the render core?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cut it out both of you! There''s no need for speaking like that in non-lounge forums.

Mihail121, if you''re going to call Ogre "dumm" then at least give reasonable justification for it. Neurokaotix, don''t be so volatile! On the other hand, I would like to congratulate Mihail121 for that very nice top-quality diss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
neurokaotix + Mihail121 : If you want to fight a stupid "my engine is better than your engine" thing, then please do it via email, or on gamefaqs, flipcode, where ever. But not here. I will not tolerate this kind of crap on this forum. It's pretty sad that those things seem to be standard in the lounge, but people need to show a minimum of maturity on the technical forums.

quote:

Are the shaders API independent, or would you have to write one for each renderer to achieve the same effect? i.e. is the shader system part of the engine core, or part of the render core?


They are part of the render core, and thus API dependent. If someone wants to port the engine to a different API later on (possible, but we won't do it), he'll have to port every single shader. That's the price to pay for performance. But well, due to extensive use of Cg, it wouldn't be that bad either.


[edited by - Yann L on July 10, 2003 8:37:51 AM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Yann L
...r on gamefaqs, flipcode, where ever. But not here.


Why should they do it there. Those site are serious gamedev sites, just like this one.


My Site

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yeah you''re right i shoudn''t speak like that but i was...well...pissed of.Anyway you want my arguments for calling the Ogre engine dumm?Ok here they are:I never tollerate the usage of other people''s stuff(exept external libs or so but a WHOLE engine?!??!).I think that the best stuff is the stuff that you''ve created ON YOUR OWN.Yeah i know there are engines 100 times better than mine(for the current state ) but that does not change the fact that they are other people''s.I never use any basecodes or etc. and istead of that i code the things myself cause it''s a little more experience.Yeah some of you might say that checking other people''s code and comparing it with your own brings even more experience and i''m totaly agreed.I check it but never use it.However if there is a better techique i learn it and use it.And back to the Ogre engine.It''s not dumm as an engine it''s just dumm for me.That''s all.As always some people will agree and some will not.Therefor i want to ask you not to start a flame war or somethin''.Thanks for reading!

"You losers better learn...NOONE CONTROLS OUR GOD DAMN LIFE!!!" - MANOWAR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
btw I never put any engine down, nor did I say one was better than another. I have however looked at the OGRE codebase and am currently using it for one of my projects (because at the moment I''m more interested in programming games rather than core technologies programming). However, my engine (which is very very weak right now) is linked in my signature.

James Simmons
MindEngine Development
http://medev.sourceforge.net

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah i''ve checked it.If it supports all possible APIs(even Glide which respect a lot) and it will soon have multiplatform support then it ain''t that bad.Just find a will to finish it.It''s worth it!

"You losers better learn...NOONE CONTROLS OUR GOD DAMN LIFE!!!" - MANOWAR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites