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Landfish

No more RPGs!

69 posts in this topic

Alrighty. They suck. Even the people who like them think they suck. If there's one thing i've learned in my short time here at GDNet, it's that RPGs are tedious, ill-concieved, abstract pieces of crap. Nobody likes them, but a few people like them *in theory*. I'm issuing a call for the end of "RPGs". If you were thinking of making an RPG, give it up. Your hearts in the wrong place. Anyone who SAYS they want to make an RPG really wants to make one of a few other things... A combat game A M(UD, USH, OO, etc.) A graphical adventure kinda game A management/strategy game So I say SCREW RPGs! They're a stigma, a label we have become dependant on. We think we're cool because we want to make these virtual worlds, when we don't have clue #1 about the real world. Our motivations are wrong. When you sit down to make an RPG, you are really referring to a vast collection of cliches and traditional statistical groups that you want to copy verbatum. Throw in some forgettable characters, and the story from your D&D campaigne 2 years ago, and you've got a game, right? When you have an idea for a game, god please don't call it an RPG! Just start from scratch, designing a system that suits the gamplay/story/resources you want to use to make that game. Assume nothing. Be creative. Trust in your own ability to create something of value without relying on ANYTHING! When I say anything, that goes for all of the idealist crap that landfish himself has spouted out his various orifices in the past few months. If you want to make a combat-based game, perhaps Murder-based experience is the best way to go! Damn the moral or ethical implications! Damn the abstraction! Damn it all! If you have given thorough pontification to a systmes compatability to your idea, and aren't accepting anything simply because it goes with the traditional package, you'll be well off! NEVER, EVER MAKE AN RPG! Make a game! And make it a good one! Or I will come to your house and *0*&* the (&%^*&^ with your (&^&^32#@# and a hampster. Thank you for your time. Edited by - Landfish on 6/20/00 6:26:02 PM
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Okay man, RPG''s are stories told by someone where the reader gets to perform actions that help determine the inevitable outcome. Your statments about never making an RPG are quite rediculos. Yes i agree if you want to make a game, make it good, but most people clasify games under genres. What you are saying is to total obliterate the type of games that tell a compelling and enjoyable story. It''s like saying "burn all fary tales" it''s not going to happen. YES! there are some developers who are turning the genere into a cpyright/idea borrowing paradise, and on top of that, again you are right there are RPG''s with no story to even speak of, but do not put down those developers who wish to create a compelling story and good gameplay simply becasue of some rottem apples.

One could just as well make a plea to stop making 3D first prospective shopoters becasue no man or bookcase can hold the entire multitude of them..(has anybody ever tried this? how many shelves would it take to hold every 3D FPS?

but back to the subject, it''s funny to see personally, and i''m truly sory that you have played one too many badly developed RPG''s but to tell peope to stop making them becasue they suck no matter what..... that''s just plain dumb!

/* the vies expressed in this post are my own, and wholy open to being flamed, but you are warned that the author also has a flame tounge, so do it in private not whre everybody can see how ... you are.....
*/

pheonixcross@hotmail.com
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"I''m going to go and repair my igloo now"
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I don''t care if i get flamed for this, but landfish, I respect your opinion, I just don''t agree with it...at all. I have been driven to RPG''s because FPS is senseless shooting with a story attatched, Action/Adventure are great, just don''t give me the story that I get in an RPG, a long novellike experience. That is what I want from RPGs. Not primarilly gameplay, not just action, not just adventure. It feels great to level up and see what massive damage you can do atyour new level, or after buying a weapon how much more damage you do to an enemy. People seek this kind of thing - to level up - to gain in status...I mean for crying out loud people on this dang forum do it! They go from Initiate to ????, and you can''t tell me that it doesn''t feel good to get out of the initiate level and on to other higher things!! This is definately a thing that people play RPGs for. Why are they a stigma, or a label we have become dependant on? Because they are the kind of thing we all want to do. Someone one day asked me why I play them when it takes me forever to get to a fight, and all you do is go back and forth. I couldn''t explain why, I just like them. I hope this post doesn''t make me hated, especially by you landfish, I really do respect your opinions, and you have really enlightened me but I had to defend my position. No offense.
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Leveling up is fun, for about 2 seconds. I say leveling up is the worse thing that ever happened to storytelling/role playing. I remember getting dumped a level in my paper/pen days because i mentioned my level to a NPC. This was the best DM i ever played with. I''m not trying to prove my stupidity here (i''ll do that later), rather how unimportant levels are to the genre of RPG''s.

Actually, maybe we don''t need the classification "RPG". What does it say anyhow... your character has stats? you can level up in this game? or how about, maybe you''ll get lucky and finish the game the way you''d like to.

Who PLAY''s a ROLE anyhow? Do you?





The measure of intelligence is in the question not the answer.
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=)




"Learn to hate what you love. In order to truly love, you must be intimately familiar with it''s weaknesses, and love it nonetheless. Otherwise you are merely diluding yourself."

Let me just say, I love contradicting myself. I love it when others contradict themselves, too. It''s only then that you really have to think about what someone has said, rather than assuming you understand.

What does RPG mean, boys? Can someone tell me that? EXACTLY what are these things? Not "Role-playing game". What are they? How do they differ on a basic level from anything else?

If I were to make an extensive, semi-linear (branching plot paths), realtime combat, historically researched, horror-game, where the character assumes the role of someone plunged deep into ambient intrigue surrounding a small Wallachian town called Rothel in the year 1223... is that a roleplaying game? No playerside statistics, not hit-point systems or levels. Minimal management. Play control sharp enough to be considered an action game, but with a VERY strong plot and divergent pathways on a scale you would only see in an rpg? NPC interaction is crucial to the storyline. Game isn''t combat centric.

IS THIS STILL AN RPG?

No suprose encounters. No "go here to get this object and take it there". Is this STILL AN RPG?

When my characters speak in voice over, and everything is motion captured, is it an RPG?

What do you think?
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Paul Cunningham, I like you. I''ve only seen about three days of posting, and already, you''re contradicting the hell out of yourself. That last post is some of the truest truth I''ve ever heard, and some of your other posts make me want to scream. Keep up the good work!
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quote:
Original post by Landfish

Paul Cunningham, I like you. I''ve only seen about three days of posting, and already, you''re contradicting the hell out of yourself. That last post is some of the truest truth I''ve ever heard, and some of your other posts make me want to scream. Keep up the good work!


Thank you Matyr of Chaos LandFish. I shall keep up that good/evil work. Hmmm... what next.


The measure of intelligence is in the question not the answer.
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I fully agree with Landfish here. We should be trying to NOT
write to a genre, everyone should have a natural style that
shows in their games. Let the game players/reviewers/marketing
people decide what pigeon hole to stick your work into. Just
make it a natural thing.




----------
Disco Love For Everyone
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I think the Chicken of the Sea forgot to take his nap...hehe
I agree w/ you Landfish...the sooner we remove the name RPG, the sooner we can just make a damned good game. FPS''s are starting branch out w/ more interactivity, and so shall the Genre Formally Known As RPG (GFKAR).
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Right as you are, Naz, this isn''t just about the title. It''s about the whole series of assumptions that comes with the RPG label. In a way, every weird post I make is eating away at assumptions like that... but somehow also contributing to the problem.

I''ve been saying, how can we change... how can we improve? But I should be saying: "Take nothing for granted, and make sure everything in the game serves a purpose to *that* game!"

Hey, guess what! I learned something from GDNet! *That''s* why I come here....
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Yeah, I realized you meant all the assumptions that come w/ the label. I may not comprehend Zen, but I''m not totally idiotic..well maybe sometimes but that''s another story....
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It''s funny that I''ve been thinking about the very same things tonight, and I must say I agree.

Another thing I have found wrong with the current crop of what''s still being called "RPG"s, is that they try to map out an entire paper/pencil CAMPAIGN, without taking care of the adventures. A single RPG game should be either a single adventure, or a linked series of adventures for a single-themed campaign. Linear yea or nae, it matters not.

All we want is the setting, and the level of control over our character''s actions.
The rest is a bunch of TLAs ( Three Letter Acronym ).

If it''s fun, they''ll play.


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment..
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
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Well, then I am comprehending Zen like a son of a #!@!#. Or not comprehending it...I''m not sure anymore...
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quote:
Original post by MadKeithV

If it''s fun, they''ll play.


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment..
~ (V)^/) /<é!t/-/ ~


Truer words have never been spoken.

Naz: It looks like you''re getting it after all....
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I think I see...You just say one thing then the opposite, then you sound very Eastern and wise. It''s pretty easy...And those Zen masters had us thinking they were so smart
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quote:
Original post by SpazBoy_the_Mitey

I fully agree with Landfish here. We should be trying to NOT
write to a genre, everyone should have a natural style that
shows in their games. Let the game players/reviewers/marketing
people decide what pigeon hole to stick your work into. Just
make it a natural thing.
Disco Love For Everyone


Have a look at the thread "Is a game design ever finished" it''s relavent here i think.



The measure of intelligence is in the question not the answer.
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Agree with all.

I think the good word for the RPG are ''Interactive Storytelling''.

This the kind of game I''ve designed, if you ask me why I did not have designed an RPG it''s because like you I didn''t find any good way to make one.

Even thinking about MMORPG, I can''t found any good way to create a RPG.

I''ve not seen much true RPG (pen & paper) in my life.
Many people are just doing level up, many other are monster killers, a few play a role, and a few create action/story rather than following it.

With the inacurate RPG name of even the pen & paper games, are you surprised to see that Computer RPG are not RPG ?

I''m not.

-* So many things to do, so few time to spend *-
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How is that relevant? I suppose, if you want to standardize the design process, what spaz and I have said is very silly. But standarize the design process and you don''t have one anymore. You end up with a copying process.

If a game is to be viewed as a piece of art, it must be a holistic entity. The gameplay, art, music writing, engine and everything else must be created to support the theme of the game. Sure, it would be much more efficient to standardize, but it would be like painting-by-number. Slight variation on a sea of conformity.
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''RPG'' are of course decendants from ''live'' Role playing games with a bunch of friends. One of who has a world of sorts planed out and explains how you find your self at the begining of the game and then (in the good ones anyway) you decide how your character will navigate throught this world, with the aim of doing something or stoping or what ever. Unfortunatly we alwase end up too drunk and never get that far but thats another story.

Computer ''RPG''s were initally like this, but now. ? I suggest that the RPG rpg term realy only applys to games which incorporate a group, some objective or goal, with the computer performing the role of GM, providing the universe in which to play while alowing the play absolute freedom to play how they wish.

Sure other games alow you to ''Play a role''. If you want to be picky, all games do. But that doesn''t make them RPG''s.

And your mother to!

As Mr Cup always says,
''I pretend to work. They pretend to pay me.''
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Hey, Landfish, you are totally right; I actually always thought that the classification of games in genres is stupid, not only the term RPG; a game is just a game, maybe some games contain elements of other games, but cramming games into genres only leads to stupid dogmas; you have to make resource-management in RTS, you must have the classes wizard, warrior and thief in your RPG, in a FPS you can not let the player have an inventory and let him solve object-puzzles, in a ScFi-world there must always be teleporters, and they are always called "teleporters" (where does the word come from anyways?) and make flashes and a buzzing sound...it's stupid, but you see it every day.

I say, put everything in a game (or take everything out of a game) you want, as long as it's fun! Yeah, what I say sounds redundant and totaly obvious, but when you look at the computer games of today and really think about it, it doesn't seem so obviuos anymore. I even think that sometimes it's not bad if you willingly ignore other games; people who have never played a computergame sometimes have the most original and strange ideas when you ask them about how something should be done in a computer game...

Edited by - Roderik on June 21, 2000 6:50:37 AM
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Now I''m furious! All right if you say that the classification is wrong (I agree Ingenu), but, NO WAY TO FINISH THEM. Some minutes after I''m back with my rage

Thanks, Arthur(rockslave)
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Did you fall on your head as an infant? I mean, Personally, I LOVE RPG's, and just about everybody I know does too. I'm sure that there are people that hate them. Look at this thread, it's proof. And everybody is entitled to their opinion.

But I simply love RPG's too much to just stay out of this. I will admit, they do have flaws. And there are more bad RPG's than good ones. RPG's are based on story, and many story writers simply suck.

As for the definition of RPG? I'm going to leave that alone. The definition has changed since the days of pen-and-paper RPG's to todays more technological approach. Although EverQuest comes fairly close to the old days of Pen-and-paper RPG's. I guess some people don't feel that it comes close enough.

I truly hope that you people change your mind. I feel that it's really too bad that so many people don't like RPG's. It's a great genre.



Edited by - psychoprog on June 21, 2000 7:55:35 AM
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