• Announcements

    • khawk

      Download the Game Design and Indie Game Marketing Freebook   07/19/17

      GameDev.net and CRC Press have teamed up to bring a free ebook of content curated from top titles published by CRC Press. The freebook, Practices of Game Design & Indie Game Marketing, includes chapters from The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses, A Practical Guide to Indie Game Marketing, and An Architectural Approach to Level Design. The GameDev.net FreeBook is relevant to game designers, developers, and those interested in learning more about the challenges in game development. We know game development can be a tough discipline and business, so we picked several chapters from CRC Press titles that we thought would be of interest to you, the GameDev.net audience, in your journey to design, develop, and market your next game. The free ebook is available through CRC Press by clicking here. The Curated Books The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses, Second Edition, by Jesse Schell Presents 100+ sets of questions, or different lenses, for viewing a game’s design, encompassing diverse fields such as psychology, architecture, music, film, software engineering, theme park design, mathematics, anthropology, and more. Written by one of the world's top game designers, this book describes the deepest and most fundamental principles of game design, demonstrating how tactics used in board, card, and athletic games also work in video games. It provides practical instruction on creating world-class games that will be played again and again. View it here. A Practical Guide to Indie Game Marketing, by Joel Dreskin Marketing is an essential but too frequently overlooked or minimized component of the release plan for indie games. A Practical Guide to Indie Game Marketing provides you with the tools needed to build visibility and sell your indie games. With special focus on those developers with small budgets and limited staff and resources, this book is packed with tangible recommendations and techniques that you can put to use immediately. As a seasoned professional of the indie game arena, author Joel Dreskin gives you insight into practical, real-world experiences of marketing numerous successful games and also provides stories of the failures. View it here. An Architectural Approach to Level Design This is one of the first books to integrate architectural and spatial design theory with the field of level design. The book presents architectural techniques and theories for level designers to use in their own work. It connects architecture and level design in different ways that address the practical elements of how designers construct space and the experiential elements of how and why humans interact with this space. Throughout the text, readers learn skills for spatial layout, evoking emotion through gamespaces, and creating better levels through architectural theory. View it here. Learn more and download the ebook by clicking here. Did you know? GameDev.net and CRC Press also recently teamed up to bring GDNet+ Members up to a 20% discount on all CRC Press books. Learn more about this and other benefits here.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Landfish

No more RPGs!

69 posts in this topic

Joke: When is a RPG not a RPG? (No answer, it just suited the topic)
Seriously...
I had an intriging thought today about the "when is a rpg not a rpg syndrome". There has been some posts on renaming RPG''s etc, that have cropped up in various threads relating to this one. My thought is this:
CPG = Character Playing Game
RPG = you know
I say let the game companies work out how to make their game a RPG and until then we''ll just frame them as CPG''s until were happy.

Diablo = CPG fact!

Critise to you hearts delite because i''m ready to argue for this cause. Or against, depending on you persective ;-)

If your a little confused then read my previous posts <--- that would make a conveinent profile signature.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Landfish,
Yeah, I realized your methods a while ago. If nothing else, you've made the board a much more active place even if 90% of the people reading it completely miss your point

BTW, there are a couple MMORPG's that are free in development. Eraonline and
Majik (<--I think you'd like that one) are two that come to mind.

With Eraonline, he got a company to give him a server. Probably in return for advertising on the website or something. I'm not sure. With Majik, I'm not sure how they're financing it. Maybe all the developers are already wealthy...I don't know...

Edited by - Nazrix on June 21, 2000 12:58:24 AM
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dude RPG''s are artwork, they are to let the player experience the story and feel the emotions of the characters. Why the hell do rpg''s suck?

I guess some people like them and some people dont but that is no reason to go telling everyone to give up on thier projects thats screwed up
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Niphty,
You forgot Dodge sucks too. Stupid car I bought needs $1100 worth of repairs...

Frag_Daddy_,
Dude, you're going to give Landfish a damned heart-attack. He explicitly said that he is not trying to stop the production of RPG's. He's merely saying that the genre of RPG brings about people including the exact same things over and over. People hear RPG, and they think of some guy running around with a sword hacking things to pieces then going to a town and buying up some supplies. His point is that a lot of people who develop games don't even attempt to try something new. We really don't know what an RPG is exactly, but we do know that it has something to do w/ a guy running around w/ a sword hacking things, and he has a bunch of stats that tell him how good he is...etc.etc.etc...you can fill in the rest...

Sorry for speaking for you, Landfish, but I'm concerned for your emotional stablility.

Edited by - Nazrix on June 21, 2000 12:51:40 AM

Edited by - Nazrix on June 22, 2000 1:24:08 AM
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OoMMMoO, you''re really missing the point...He''s not saying drop your projects. He is merely saying don''t rely on the stigma of what we consider an RPG to be. You have to read between the lines of the speech of the Landfish.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LOL.. guys.. listen to Naz. Landfish did not say to stop making your game. He said don''t make it the stereotypical "RPG" game. Try incorporating something DIFFERENT, something NEW, something that''s cool. And don''t call it an RPG or you''ll get lumped with all the others.

J
p.s. be very worried about Landfish''s emotional state, i think i''ve caused his breakdown.. hehe!
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When designing my ''CRPG'', I first think about it as a RPG since the game was story driven and I tested the quality of the story by playing it as a pen & paper RPG.

After that I realise that I wasn''t playing pen&paper RPG as almost anyone does.
Then I think about it.
I look @ games called RPG that sold well, and I try to find why by playing them.
I play some other games named ''Adventure games'' lik OutCast, and I feel that it wasn''t sofar to what I wanted to achieve.

Finally I choose to call my game :
Adventure, RPG, strategic, interactive storytelling game.

What I wanted :
Outcast 3d engine quality, jokes and immersivness with new world to explore, Final Fantasy quality battle system along with FF quality FMV and music, Metal Gear Solid action, freedom and immersivness, music and story.
I later describe my games using those different games to highlit the type of action/settings at a given moment, I add Resident Evil to the list, and some few other games.

I still consider my game of being in the ''RPG'' genre, and I don''t think that I rely on classical ''RPG'' settings or just cut & paste another game.

I wanted to make the game I would love to play, and I designed it that way, using the part of other games I enjoy to explain people willing to join my project, or I wanted to help me making my game good, and I feel that''s a good way.
(UBISoft Game Designer Manager told me it was a really good idea to compare part of my game with other well known games, he told me he found that pretty cool cause people understand quickly what I wanted to achieve.)

Does someone think that I''ve designed a standard RPG game, that I rely on a genre to copy previous game design ?


-* So many things to do, so few time to spend *-
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I reckon we''ll either have to ignore all the ignorant I-didn''t-read-the-thread-but-flamed-anyway posts, or get permission to moderate them out ourselves, they are just fluffing and diverting the discussion.

So, guys, are we going to start discussing what WOULD make a good gaming experience based on the strong points of LARPing?
( If you have never done Live Action RolePlaying, you''ve missed out , I used to do it even in our tabletop gaming sessions, which freaked a LOT of the players out. Standing up and shouting at my adversaries, or just getting into a corner of the room and eyeing everyone if I got distrustful ).

I think it doesn''t need a strong story. It needs a strong EXPERIENCE. A strong story can convey this, but perhaps there are other ways?



Give me one more medicated peaceful moment..
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
F*ck, let''s just make good games! We are talking about wether we should call games RPG, StRPG, MMORPG, whatever, I mean, it''s stupid; let''s just make GAMES! Throw away all the categorys like RPG, FPS, RTS, whatever, forget them! I hate categorization into genres, I hate it in films, and I hate it in music. Why not just take the best of everything? Categorys lead to a smaller horizon. Just like style; I hate style. Do what you want, and what fits best, and crap your style, be it in life or in creating computer games.

BTW, I was the first anonymous poster, forgot to fill in my name. The other anonymous poster abused my message quite, since I don''t agree with him, but he quoted me totally out of context.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh, and Landfish, I hate you, because you want us to burn all RPGs in the world and everybody currently develpoing one; for this I will hunt you down and eventually kill you in a week-long torture!
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hey, i know where landfish lives.. Almost went to see him once.. hehe so if you need to know..

As far as things go, I think classifications are good. I mean, it lets the consumers know what general qualifications this game or whatever has. It''s important to remember the consumer in this. You''ve got to make sure they have a slight understanding of what you''re trying to do with this game. Argue as you like, but they will still need to classify your game in order to allow people interested to know what it''s about. If you constantly tell them "don''t classify me" people will discredit you as some extremist who has no concern for the greater public. Like the flames Landfish has recieved because of his "no RPG" posting. he didn''t mean literally No RPG games, he meant no more using the title RPG and the things we associate with that type of game. Basically, make your own game.. include your own ideas, don''t hold true to the "stat" and "skill" things we associate with RPG games. Go off and make it what you wish, and let people call it what they will Heck, maybe even you can change what people see as an RPG

J
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is true; people need a way to classify things, they have to know what they are at when they buy a game. But I don''t think that it''s necessary to write "RPG" on the cover in big letters, because, as I already said, an RPG can mean so many things (the diversion is bigger than in any other "genre", I am quite sure); someone who likes Might & Magic 7 might not like Fallout, so what does it help him when both games are being described as an "RPG"? I mean, someone who wants to purchase a game will (or should) inform himself about the game anyway before he buys it; if he does not, he is likely to get a game he doesn''t like, wether it says "RPG" on the box or not. I mean, if you put something like "an interactive story about this and that..." on the top of the box (or some other eyecatching phrase) and have a cool picture on it, even people who aren''t informed about the game will at least look at it; they will read the description at the back of the box, and there is a brief description of the game so everybody knows what it''s all about (that''s for the spontaneous buyers); those who inform themselves (i.e. read magazines) will know about the game anyway; and stupid 13-year olds who like Tomb Raider because they can masturbate in front of the computer with it aren''t gonna buy the game no matter what (maybe if you put a half-naked woman who shoots at aliens with a really big gun, making the alien''s brains and bowels spurt around, they will). And if you absolutely must in order to get more customers, put "RPG" on the box, what the hell, as long as the developers of the game don''t stick to certain "RPG"-Elements dogmatically (?) because they want to make a classical RPG!

BTW, I really love the "traditional RPGs", I could play the old Ultimas all the day, and I hope there will be more of those games in the future; but we just need something really new from time to time, and maybe these games could be even better when the developers stop sticking to RPG-Dogmas and get a bit more open-minded (but beware of dumbing-down a game, as happened with Ultima : Ascension, because you want to bring f.i. Action-Adventure Elements into the classical RPGs!)
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with that totally I mean, you can put something like "in the RPG tradition" if you''re going for something classical RPG but a bit off or something else.. but don''t say "the RPG of all RPG''s" lol! marketing.. ugh.

J
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Niphty and Naz have been arguing my case pretty well, but missing one crucial aspect. If you do as I asked, and completely consider how every aspect of your game relates to what you wanted to amek to begin with, and it''s still a picture perfect cliche, THAT''S PERFECTLY OK!

In retrospect a much better title for this thread would have been: "Stop blindly using old ideas, unless you need them!"

I am giving up on this post, and starting a new one without all the ignorance. Anyone who wants to be reasonable and actually address the topic, go there. As for the people who will inevitably continue misinterpretting this post in my absence:

I THINK WE SHOULD ALL STOP MAKING RPGs BECAUSE THEY SUCK, AND ONLY NERDS PLAY THEM. FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS ARE THE ONLY COOL GAMES< AND I WILL REFUSE TO LISTEN TO ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE!

so there.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh yeah, this is kind of lovely...


But honestly, Landfish, shouldn´t you be playing your games elsewhere?

For all others, just take it literally ROLE PLAYING GAME. The numbers are to help you visualize your character. Take that away and you´ve got an adventure game. Take the plot away and you´ve got an action game.


And i think

WE SHOULD NOT DO GAMES ANYMORE AT ALL BECAUSE THEY ALL SUCK ANYWAYS. ALL THOSE WHO WILL FOLLOW ME SHOULD GNAW OFF THEIR TEN FINGERS SO THAT THEY SHALL NEVER CODE AGAIN.
YOU WILL SEE THAT IT´S FOR THE BEST MY CHILDREN
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know you''ve already posted another message, but I''d still like to pick up on this:

quote:
Original post by Roderik
Throw away all the categorys like RPG, FPS, RTS, whatever, forget them! I hate categorization into genres, I hate it in films, and I hate it in music.



Then why did SO many people reply angrily ( and without properly reading ) to this thread? Obviously, the innocuous three letters RPG ( oh yes, a category ) provoke a very strong emotional response in a lot of people.

Just to back up the fact of how much that we REALLY think in categories.
Abstraction/Generalisation is one of the strengths, and weaknesses, of the human mind.


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment..
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I didn't sift through all the 3 pages of this, so I'm sorry if somebody already posted this, but I think it went largely unnoticed. I'm still recovering from laughing though, but here it is from the second (and anonymous) post in this thread:
quote:

RPG's are stories told by someone where the reader gets to perform actions that help determine the inevitable outcome.



Too true, too true...


while( strcmp(reply,flame) )
followThread();


random-nomad

Edited by - random-nomad on June 23, 2000 12:16:39 AM
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Landfish, I agree with you in part. RPG''s used be GREAT now their just sad. Checking out the shelves at the stores the other day 90% fell into the first person shooter or C&C strategy type genres.
The heart and soul of RPGs disappeared with the emergence greedy publisher who care more about how much dosh they make rather than if a game is fun. They just use stale ideas over and over and over, no one is ever creative anymore. The whole games industry needs a massive wake up call, yes 3D first person shoot em ups and C&C style games make money but quite frankly I''m sick of them. Their just the same just the exact same game, perhaps with fancier graphics and a different environment. RPG HAH! what RPG? I wouldn''t call any game on the market right now a REAL rpg, perhaps tactical, action ( which diablo 2 should have been called ) but not an rpg. I dunno why games are labelled RPG, when their not, sure you get to play character X but your led along a linear story line, finishing one goal after the other. I don''t call that role playing I would classify that as adventure.

The only game i would call an RPG would be ultima 7, now that was an RPG, if I wanted to kill the banker I could! If I wanted to bake break yeah I could do that too.
People wonder why 3D FPS and strategy games make so much money. Gosh now let me see.... ugghhh maybe it''s because their the only darn genres out there. I don''t know what can be done, perhaps if a REAL rpg had the same success as Doom did publishers, developers and game players alike would have a completely different outlook on RPGs.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the bright side, you can count on market dynamics to eventually bring people around to the opinion that you have just expressed, and there will once again be a flood of RPGs of some form. Nature abhors a vacuum, and humankind ain''t that happy with it neither

mikey
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So much to read...so little time

Sorry to skip so many posts but just wanted to comment on rpg as a genre.

To me...I think rpg is more a genre of people than a genre of games. I can see a rpg in any game. I can play Doom and give myself certain traits that I myself don''t possess. I can play a nasty backstabber, I can play a coward (ok, that''s a LITTLE bit like myself), I can play a fool, I can...I can.

I can roleplay in RTS as well. But maybe I do that because I''m so bad at those games

I can even roleplay in life.

Computer rpgs are usually nothing more than a large collection of hack''n''slash moments, mixed with the item-gathering that still reminds me of Mario Brothers (if you see magical weapons as power-ups...).

Sure, ''rpgs'' have spells (just a different type of power-up) and you can choose where you go...but I still can''t cut down trees, I can''t cut into rock, I can''t talk to NPC''s and have a lasting relationship with them.

And sure, I can TRY to roleplay, but in the end roleplaying in a rpg game usually makes you into a very lonely player as all your friends keep outdistancing you (the hunt for power is fast and furious).

Maybe technology is just not up to par yet to create a well-made ''rpg'' that allows for a lot of roleplaying. Maybe soon...maybe never. Maybe someone is already designing it (let me know, I want to test it ).

If we just stop seeing rpg as ''roleplaying game'' but instead as ''a game where it''s a little easier to roleplay than in other games'', we''ll finally stop getting annoyed at not finding satisfaction in our computer games.

The day that I can finally play my Ventriloquist/Illusionist WITH my schizo puppet...I hope I''ll be strong and resist the urge to plug the computer straight into my brain.

Silvermyst

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites