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digisoap

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digisoap    241
Just so everyone knows, and because I've seen it being mentioned more and more in here - especially in relation to 3D programs - I don't tolerate software piracy, and I don't tolerate software piracy being spoken of. If you've done so, shame on you. Don't mention it. One mention, and you're on probation. Another, and then I'll be forced to have you banned, and I may also be to forced provide your information to the company whose software you've pirated. Zero-tolerance policy is IN EFFECT. Understand? Good. You may now return to your regularly-scheduled posting . -Nick "digisoap" Robalik Web, Print, Audio & Video Design, 2D & 3D Illustration and Animation, Game Design http://www.digital-soapbox.com nick@digital-soabox.com. [edited by - digisoap on August 10, 2003 7:41:53 PM]

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Ekim_Gram    418
Hmm, I really haven''t seen/heard anything about software piracy. And I wouldn''t really call the post I made in my topic much piracy...at least I didn''t think it was piracy until the people here told me that you couldn''t legally sell the Maya registration thing. Oh, PIRACY IS BAD. If you pirate software a movies, the people who make them lose money and can''t make them anymore so your just hurting yourself.



There''s no town drunk here, we all take turns.
Velocity Gaming Force

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Interim    122
I think you need to stop power tripping, but that''s just a personal opinion after reading a few threads here. But again, I don''t really bother much with this forum so...

Int.

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PhiberOptic    128
Well, I have seen a lot of newbies around with posts like the following:

"I want to learn to make games, but I don''t know much yet. I''ve got the newest versions of Maya, 3dsmax and Visual Studio, where to start?"


Is this cosiderd to be a piracy post?! I think so..


----------------------------------------------
Petter Nordlander

"There are only 10 kinds of people in the world. The who understand binary and those who don''t"

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Greg K    122
quote:
Original post by PhiberOptic
Well, I have seen a lot of newbies around with posts like the following:

"I want to learn to make games, but I don''t know much yet. I''ve got the newest versions of Maya, 3dsmax and Visual Studio, where to start?"


Is this cosiderd to be a piracy post?! I think so..


----------------------------------------------
Petter Nordlander

"There are only 10 kinds of people in the world. The who understand binary and those who don''t"


I understand what you mean, and in general you are probably correct in thinking someone like this pirated software. However you must think of the people who may have licensed copies of the tools mentioned above. For instance the children of software developers may have all these tools and yet not know how to program. Also some university students may have these tools available to them. Just make sure you are not punishing someone who does not actually pirate software.
-Greg

Reverie Entertainment

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SwSh    145
quote:
Original post by digisoap
I don''t tolerate software piracy being spoken of. If you''ve done so, shame on you. Don''t mention it. One mention, and you''re on probation. Another, and then I''ll be forced to ban you, and I may also be forced provide your information to the company whose software you''ve pirated.


Heh, come on! I can understand you are really pissed with people pirating software, but I think you''re going too far. Suppose I''ll mention that I''ve once stolen a car. Would you report me to the authorities just because I said that? (Maybe I didn''t even mean it)
Does it hurt you personally when someone says he has a pirated copy of 3dsMAX?
This is a forum for game developers, not for frustrated politicians. Don''t understand me wrong: I don''t rationalise the problem of software piracy. It exists, it''s not good, people doing so have to be punished, etc... but NOT here, NOT like that!
If a problem exists, a discussion is necessary. Zero tolerance doesn''t help. It hides the problem. It doesn''t solve it.
If a newbie says he has a pirated copy of MSVC, 3dsmax, ... and he wants to make a game. The right solution is NOT to ban him but to tell him that what he does is not right and tell him the possible alternatives so he can reach his goal without committing software piracy. That way "the noob" will thank you for helping him out. (unless he''s a total moron ) If you ban him, he''ll still use his pirated software, no matter what you''ve said him to do.
Conclusion: --vote for zero tolerance
++ vote for freedom of speech


SwSh website!

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Michalson    1657
*ahem*

Read the general FAQ that covers this entire board (all GDNet forums). Software piracy is explicity forbidden, as are any threads about "why software piracy isn''t so bad", etc. This is a board for software developers, many of whom make a living or will be making a living once they finish on the sale of software. If you want to be an idiot and promote or otherwise brag (and I consider any talk of what you pirate bragging) about software piracy, go to a more suitable board. If you don''t have the basic mental capacity to understand why talking about (your) software piracy is bad here then this board is obviously way too advanced for you. Otherwise if you are here, but do pirate software for whatever reason, have some common sense and keep it to yourself.

For stupidity similar to talking piracy on a developer board, watch as idiot mechanic brags about how he "test drove" a customers expensive performance car on an auto message board:

Mechanic''s post

Owners post

(This spawned a few hundred long threads on different auto message boards. Needless to say this guy was fired and will never be able to work in the auto industry again)

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SwSh    145
I don''t know if Michalsons post was meant as a reply to mine, but if so: Let me quote myself: "Don''t understand me wrong: I don''t rationalise the problem of software piracy. It exists, it''s not good, people doing so have to be punished"
Clear?


SwSh website!

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Myopic Rhino    2317
quote:
Original post by Greg K
For instance the children of software developers may have all these tools and yet not know how to program.
If their parent is a game developer, why would they be asking for help here?

Anyway, I won''t support disciplinary action in the situation described by PhiberOptic (and I think that those people should be treated in the manner SwSh suggests), but I don''t think that''s the main issue here. The issue is people directly asking for pirated software, or how to obtain pirated software, in which case I agree with Nick completely.

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
"Suppose I''ll mention that I''ve once stolen a car. Would you report me to the authorities just because I said that?"

i suppose i wouldnt personally bother unless i knew you personally, but it begs the question, why would you ever mention stealing a car if you havent at least thought about it in the past? it should still raise the eyebrows of any mindful citizen.

"Does it hurt you personally when someone says he has a pirated copy of 3dsMAX?"

physically? no. The economy? well for one person , no, but when is it ever just one person? and ontop of that, when is it ever just one industry? pirates have been around alot longer than 3d packages, and theyll be around far longer than the death of 3d packages. Im sure Digisoap knows this, he just doesnt want you to say "yo i got craxked version of maya, how do i model" and give yourself away so easily.

""I want to learn to make games, but I don''t know much yet. I''ve got the newest versions of Maya, 3dsmax and Visual Studio, where to start?"

i feel the same way you do, i would interperit this as " i have illegal copies"... but dont they also make demo versions free to download from their site these days? (thanks to the numerous acts of piracy)

"I think you need to stop power tripping"

LOL, yeah... dont we all. hes only doin his job as moderator man.

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Michalson    1657
quote:
Original post by SwSh
I don''t know if Michalsons post was meant as a reply to mine, but if so: Let me quote myself: "Don''t understand me wrong: I don''t rationalise the problem of software piracy. It exists, it''s not good, people doing so have to be punished"
Clear?



Nope, I was just making a general response to the responses in the thread.

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thec    212
I''m using linux (red hat 9), gcc, opengl, jedit, make and blender3d.

I certainly see your point. I was piracing software for quite some years and when my morale picked up on me, I got to the decision where I either throw away windows with all the piracy software which you need to have to do something creative at all, or just install linux and use what''s free out there.

Sure, Visual Studio helps, but you can do just fine with GCC and a nice text editor anyway.

On windows, it isn''t really reality to actually produce something cool while doing it for free, since "everybody" has got the latest piracy software for you to use anyway... Yes, I''m aware of the fact that there are free compilers and blender for windows too, I''m just saying it isn''t standard practice to use it on windows.

Albert

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Andrew Russell    1394
quote:
Original post by thec
On windows, it isn''t really reality to actually produce something cool while doing it for free, since "everybody" has got the latest piracy software for you to use anyway... Yes, I''m aware of the fact that there are free compilers and blender for windows too, I''m just saying it isn''t standard practice to use it on windows.


So? The software is available for windows and it should be used. For example, I have:

Windows 98 OEM that came with the computer
Borland C Builder 3 (free from a magizine cover disk)
GIMP for Windows (free download)
Blender (free download)
Anim8or (free download)
PovRay (free download)
CakeWalk (came with sound card)
ModPlug Tracker (free download)
Reason (very expensive)
OpenOffice.org (free download)
Office (expensive)

I agree that some of those are expensive, however there is nothing on that list that dosn''t have a free option. The fact of the matter is I have been able to develop for a very long time with all the free tools, and only now I am getting the more expensive tools. And even still, I am sticking with most of the free tools (Borland, GIMP, etc, because the benifits of more expensive tools do not justify their cost).

Having windows is no excuse, and if it was they can go get Linux. The tools are there, so don''t rip off some other poor (or even rich) developer.

Anyway, so what if it''s standard practice?? It dosn''t make it any less illegal.


Free Game: Yet Another Falling Block Game

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eng3d    91
About legal products :
Many have a poor manual. Another have a complex and hard-to-understand manual (examples Autocad).
No?
If the manual was really useable then you don''t need to buy another book (for example 3dsmax have a lot of books..). So, if someone say about to need a help (a newbie), he not necesary is a piracy!. In my case, i have the legal products but i preffer to ask in internet about it.

I have a lot of LEGAL products (because my business) BUT i don''t disagreed with the pirate, i''m not a lawyer to judged it, i''m NOT PAID for hunter pirates, i''m not interesting in it. In fact, i''m a programmer and i''m worry about MY and only my programs.

Ok, if some stupid say "where i can download 3dsmax", the it is good for ban but,if someone say "i need help" and you ban because you suppose... ¬¬

Finally, piracy or legal users not necesary is equal to good or bad user. I have many users with original software but they are really dumb with it.

In my country it is called a "caza de bruja" (witch hunter).. because they catch a true witch and also innocents.



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Myopic Rhino    2317
quote:
Original post by eng3d
Ok, if some stupid say "where i can download 3dsmax", the it is good for ban but,if someone say "i need help" and you ban because you suppose...
Didn''t I say that we''re not going to ban anyone just because they *might* have pirated software?

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Raduprv    997
I think that when users pirate 3DMax, or Maya, for their own, non commercial use is beneficial for the economy.
Why? Because most of them buy books, and then they learn how to use those programs, so they can get hired by companies who payed for them. If very few people would pirate 3DMax or Maya, for example, they would have to use the free equivalent tools, because no one (I am talking about beginners) would spend 5K USD for a product that is not vital for them. So then most of the companies would be forced to use free tools too, because it''s the free tools people can use.
Instead, the makers of the expensive programs should have a really cheap (50-100 USD) version of their expensive programs, but require people NOT to use them for commercial stuff.

Height Map Editor | Eternal Lands | Fast User Directory

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yspotua    122
Please don''t come to a software development forum and try to justify stealing software. As far as your arguement goes, almost all of the major players have FREE learning editions and yet people still steal software.

Then there are other alternatives, there is software in the couple of hundred dollar range like Bryce, Rhino, Truespace, Animation Master, etc. Then there are many apps that are even cheaper such as 3D Canvas and Milkshape. And still there are the open source choices like Wings, Blender, Art of Illusion, etc.

And yet with all these not so expensive alternatives, piracy is still a problem.

Bottom line piracy is illegal and there is not arugment that you can make that will justify it.

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Raduprv    997
quote:
Original post by yspotua
Please don''t come to a software development forum and try to justify stealing software. As far as your arguement goes, almost all of the major players have FREE learning editions and yet people still steal software.



Free learning editions where you can''t even save your work. very cool and useful.

quote:

Then there are other alternatives, there is software in the couple of hundred dollar range like Bryce, Rhino, Truespace, Animation Master, etc. Then there are many apps that are even cheaper such as 3D Canvas and Milkshape. And still there are the open source choices like Wings, Blender, Art of Illusion, etc.



So if you know how to use Bryce you can use 3D Max?

quote:

And yet with all these not so expensive alternatives, piracy is still a problem.



Sure, it will always be.

quote:

Bottom line piracy is illegal and there is not arugment that you can make that will justify it.


So whatever is illegal is wrong?

Height Map Editor | Eternal Lands | Fast User Directory

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ToohrVyk    1596
By following your logic, Raduprv, I could steal a car, because I could never pay for it if I had to.

You want people to be able to learn 3Ds Max? This means learning the program as a tool. You know how to extrude, create objects, boxes, and all those little steps you can take while creating a model etc... Each of these commands can be done in seconds without having a prior model. You can even do it on a cube.

Now, of course, if you want to be able to learn how to put these steps together to create a model, you have to be able to save your work. But this is not using 3ds Max anymore, you can learn this on most 3D editors.

To your question, "If I can use Bryce, can I use 3DS Max?", I''ll answer simply: if you know how to create models using simple steps, then download a learning version of 3DS Max, learn how to do these steps, and you''ll know how to use 3DS Max.

He did not say whatever illegal is wrong. There even isn''t something that is truly wrong by universal standards - it''s all a matter of definition. However, this board intends to enforce the law by all means available to them, and it is not wrong to do so.

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markadrake    104
quote:
Original post by digisoap
Just so everyone knows, and because I''ve seen it being mentioned more and more in here - especially in relation to 3D programs - I don''t tolerate software piracy, and I don''t tolerate software piracy being spoken of. If you''ve done so, shame on you. Don''t mention it. One mention, and you''re on probation. Another, and then I''ll be forced to have you banned, and I may also be to forced provide your information to the company whose software you''ve pirated.

Zero-tolerance policy is IN EFFECT.

So, just making sure I''m correct, if I mention piracy I''m on probation? Just cause I say something about piracy? I don''t contribute nor do I approve of it, but at the same time why is it bad to TALK about it? Maybe I''m clueless? And to be banned?

Your Zero-Tolereance policy sounds just as bad as my school''s one on fighting. According to them, person A can go down the hallway and hit any random person and both are suspended. Why? Cause person b got hit now he is suspended? Its not like he likes fighting or did anything to provoke it...

Now if someone was contributing to it, or saying he does pirate, I understand totally... But just to have a discussion on it and to be potentially banned, makes no sense.

Oh well just my 2 cents, won''t affect me anyhow.



Mark Drake
I M A G I N E

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Raduprv    997
quote:
Original post by ToohrVyk
By following your logic, Raduprv, I could steal a car, because I could never pay for it if I had to.



If someone would CLONE my car, then steal that cloned instance, I couldn''t care less.

quote:

To your question, "If I can use Bryce, can I use 3DS Max?", I''ll answer simply: if you know how to create models using simple steps, then download a learning version of 3DS Max, learn how to do these steps, and you''ll know how to use 3DS Max.



That''s like saying: "if you know pseudocode you will be a good C programmer in a few hours".



Height Map Editor | Eternal Lands | Fast User Directory

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ToohrVyk    1596
No. If you know how to program, and I give you a C interpreter, then you''ll be able to code in C. ("Whisper words of wisdom... code in C....")

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yspotua    122
quote:
Original post by Raduprv

Free learning editions where you can''t even save your work. very cool and useful.


The only learning edition that I have used is Gmax and it serves its purpose. If the free learning editions don''t suit you, save up the money to buy the educational versions. Most of these have all the functionality of the full version, but with a restricted EULA.

Then with the open source software you can create just about anything that you can with commercial software, it just might take you longer.

quote:

So if you know how to use Bryce you can use 3D Max?



I haven''t used Bryce so I don''t know. I do know that 3D techniques are the same, wherever you use them. Its just a matter of learning the way the way another programs implements them.

quote:

Sure, it will always be.



I''m sure that it will, but there is no justication for it.

quote:

So whatever is illegal is wrong?



Murder is wrong; rape is wrong; armed robbery is wrong, at least to most civilized people. All of these crimes are problems, should society accept these crimes? No. I''m not trying to equate software piracy with murder, but both are crimes that harm society.

Piracy is digitial theft. You think that it doesn''t harm anyone physcially so its ok. Without the possiblity of being paid, 3D Max, Maya, etc. would have never been developed. Software companies make money by selling software, if everyone started stealing it, commercial software would die. That would be bad for the entire software landscape, including open source projects.

In the end using XSI or Lightwave isn''t going to make you a better artist. These apps do save time, but an artist with talent can create great works with lower end software.

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Lamont    114
The issue is that these companies sponsor some of the events here. And to keep this site going, I think it''s a definate to stop anything that may even seem like a piracy thread.

For anyone learnign these applcations, there are FREE versions from the companies with few limitations.

And if you want to get into game art, then get Wings 3D and that UV mapping application (25 bucks).

Lamont G.
CG Artist
Chula Vista CA
http://www.digitalweapon.net

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