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# Phallic Compensation.

## 46 posts in this topic

Akujin, go for it man.. it never hurts to try

Jeranon, it was also more strategy based, solve puzzles. Look at Myst, that''s TRUE RPG there. You played a person and ran around solving things. Or even other games which came before Myst.

Landfish, I''m using the same example you did You said if your foot was wounded! ;p So, i ran with that. But it''s not gonna matter either way.. a picture of a body with it''s guts hanging out when your stomache explodes is likely the only way to make people feel something over it.. but they''ll likely only feel sick. hehe But hey.. that''d be the reality of it.. lol. I think it''d just be hard to do anything like the level of Mechwarrior. You don''t know EXACTLY how damaged your foot it. So how would you do it? Simply turn the foot red if bleeding, and yellow if bruised? It''s hard to decide what to do to make it come out right.

The stats in D&D are static. You have to find SUPER RARE items to change them at all. The powermaxing there comes in from the best rolls and the best combo of skills and powers. With the vanilla D&D game, you can''t powermax too much. Skills and Powers offers you a WHOLE WORLD of minmaxing.
So static stats might offer some hope, but only if skills don''t exist. What were you going to have along with the stats, if anything?

J
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Apparently my previous post was ignored (under my old nickname). Perhaps it''s because I forgot the landfish signal?

Anyway, back to the topic:

quote:

But back to the original issue... would static or near static statistics be any kind solution to powergaming?

No, at least not in a MMORPG unless you can figure out some other way to allow the players to gain status.

That''s what it''s all about, status. Players like to know that they''re the best. And they want to flaunt it, and shove it down the other players throats until everyone is just about ready to kick the player''s @ .

Personally I would like a static statistical system. But I''m an oddball. Most players enjoy advancing.

As I said before, the best approach is to let the players advance, but change the *way* in which they advance. If players are rewarded for ROLE-playing, then they''ll want to roleplay. For instance, if you decide to become the hiddeously evil goblin, then you shouldn''t show mercy. You should go destroy villages to your hearts content. And you should be rewarded for that. And un-goblin like actions should *not* be rewarded.

And at the opposite end, if your a hero, you should be rewarded for honorable deads. But you shouldn''t be rewarded for killing helpless animals.

getting to the point...

Stats aren''t bad. But the way we give them out is. Reward players for roleplaying instead of leveling helpless animals .

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"Death has come to your tea cup."
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quote:

Reward players for roleplaying instead of leveling helpless animals.

I couldn't possibly agree more, but that would be incredibly difficult to implement completely in a game...especially an MMORPG. The mud Faerun (which IMO is a very good MUD) they have the imms watch people and reward the ones that RP a lot with RP points which they can use for special rewards like money and other stuff. The thing is, that mud has about 40 ppl or so at any given time, so it's not as hard for the imms to watch ppl. In a big MMORPG there's thousands, so it would be very hard for them to watch everyone. I guess what we need is a game that itself is designed to perpetuate RPing. I don't think that ALL players just want to show off how great they are...Most do however.

I used to play on a free-form RPG which was basically just a chat room. The cool thing there was to allow the char to have weaknesses and not just be all-powerful, so I know there are players that consider Role-play the priority.

The trick is to design the game with the players in mind that would not want to show off how great they are. One thing that would help is permanent death. It's harsh, but ppl wouldn't want to go around killing stuff to show how strong they are if it could mean their character is dead forever. Okay...that's enough of my ramblings...

Edited by - Nazrix on June 27, 2000 12:13:42 PM
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quote:

One thing that would help is permanent death.

I like that idea. Just make it so that when you die, you lose your character. Or maybe you can give them 2-3 deaths before they lose their character, to safeguard against accidents. This will also allow players to become much more attached to their characters.

quote:

I couldn''t possibly agree more, but that would be incredibly difficult to implement completely in a game...especially an MMORPG.

I''m thinking more like things you can have a computer recognize. For instance, it''s pretty easy for the computer to figure out when your just killing things, or when your helping other players, or when your being a baddy, etc.

Also (pet peeve), maybe the computer could figure out when your talking out of character by looking for certain text statements. For example, you shouldn''t be rewarded for talking like this: "r u going to k1ll the D?". That''s just annoying in an RPG .

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"Death has come to your tea cup."
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Yeah, as long as the computer can justly regulate those things...it's a great idea...

I know I've posted about this game before, but I really think they have the right idea when it comes to MMORPGs

Majik

Edited by - Nazrix on June 27, 2000 1:03:49 PM
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To answer your question, Mr.Fish, static attributes will not end minmaxing. I remember in one of the AD&D campaigns I used to play in, there was this one guy who did just that. As you know, AD&D has static attributes (unless your DM is really nice). He still had to have the best weapons, the best armor, the best horse.... you see my point. He didn''t care that the DM thought that his swashbuckler shouldn''t use a two-handed sword, it did the most damage, and that''s all he cared about.

Real role-playing is the only way to truly prevent people from minmaxing. There is no DM in CRPGs, so you have to hardcode all these things in and hope they work.

The Senshi is totally on track here. If someone makes a hero character, they should be penalized for attacking helpless/innocent beings. Evil characters should be punished for not doing these things. If heroes let the evil people do these things, they should be penalized again......

However, allowing charachters to grow will make heroes band together to fight the more powerful villian, and vice versa. There are tons of ways of MAKING people role play, why try to change something that aint broke. Sure, *urp* leveling is abused sometimes, but done right, it is rewarding and fun.

On another note, Landfish, I really hate hit points. They are so stupid, they make no sense, and they piss me off. I''ve always tried to avoid them, but I still don''t have a good system on paper (that isn''t too much like another game''s system ). I was just saying that player stats, weapon stats, etc. don''t have to be non-numerical to be effective.

I''m interested in everyone''s thoughts on this (3rd and 4th par).

/*initiates shouldn't have signatures*/
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Myst wasn''t an RPG. It was a visually stunning puzzle game. It''s roleplaying elements were really no greater then the roleplaying elements of games in any other genre. After all, in almost any game you buy, you do assume a role that is not equivalent to a person sitting at a computer playing a game.

It would be easy to look for text like R u a kewl dood? But how easy would it be to look for text like Did you hear about that nasty accident that happened yesterday? Not only is it not so easy to write code that accurately finds good or bad roleplaying, or people acting in a good or bad way, but it''s also highly subjective to one''s definition of those very things. I''m not saying it''s impossible, but it''s certainly improbable, and would indeed be a difficult task to do well.
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I see what your saying Raskell, but the point is not to make a perfect system, but rather to make one which encourages roleplaying and rewards it for the most part.

Heck, no system IS perfect. Even human ops wouldn''t work perfectly. The idea is just to make an incentive to keep players in their roles, not to make a police system .

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"Don't worry about it sir, it's an eye-dee-ten-tee error -- takes too long to explain -- have a nice day."
I d 10 t
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quote:
Original post by The Senshi

I see what your saying Raskell, but the point is not to make a perfect system, but rather to make one which encourages roleplaying and rewards it for the most part.

Heck, no system IS perfect. Even human ops wouldn''t work perfectly. The idea is just to make an incentive to keep players in their roles, not to make a police system .

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"Don''t worry about it sir, it''s an eye-dee-ten-tee error -- takes too long to explain -- have a nice day."
I d 10 t

Yeah, again, I totally agree. What would be ideal is if the system would govern itself. If the actual players can possibly ifluence others to Role Play and not ruin the atmosphere. As long as the majority of the players understand what is trying to be accomplished and they Role Play, then new players will see that is the way they''re supposed to act. What seems to happen in MMORPGs is that the majority of the players speak OOC all of the time and it just perpetuates itself. New players mimic that behavior, and a vicious cycle is born.
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Senshi: I have to reiterate, I have no interst in preserving the kind of gameplay which powermaxers consider to be fun. Yes, I know I will lose most of the MMORPG audience, but those who remain will be pretty cool.
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quote:

Senshi: I have to reiterate, I have no interst in preserving the kind of gameplay which powermaxers consider to be fun. Yes, I know I will lose most of the MMORPG audience, but those who remain will be pretty cool.

...And the point I''m trying to make is that you don''t neccasarily *have* to lose that audience. Besides, you need someone to argue with, anyway. Victory is always best when you have critics, right?

Anyway, at risk of sounding like a tape recording, I''ll reiterate my point: stats aren''t inherintly evil. They can be good. The problem is that they''ve been abused horribly.

I realize that your trying to make something different, so feel free to completly ignore this post . I''m full of crap anyway .

Just realize that what you make might not appeal to many people other than yourself .

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"Don't worry about it sir, it's an eye-dee-ten-tee error -- takes too long to explain -- have a nice day."
I d 10 t
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Playing Everquest myself, I''ve long ago discovered what exactly it is that makes me play...friends in my group.

It is NOT gaining a next level (my last ''level-up'' last week didn''t even register until someone asked me an hour later out of the blue -stranger..yuck!- what my level was) it is NOT gaining items (I''m still running around with empty spots all over my body), it is NOT doing quests (give item to person whoever...give ''m more...and more...keep on giving).

I have to admit that I DO enjoy close fights (usually I hunt at about 30% health just to make fights more dangerous).

What does this have to do with the topic?

Well...I would be one of the players that WOULD play a no-advancement or low-advancement game. Why? Because I play a character...yup, I actually bond to my character. And my character bonds to me. Thus, usually my characters don''t care about material things, don''t care about power. They do care about friendships though...

And friendships is what a non/low-advancement game will thrive on. Social interactions will become more important. Certain players will not join in games like this...others will. And I think that when the game is good enough, those few that start it will quickly gain a larger following as other players start to catch on that there is a game out there that will give them something else, a relief from hack''n''slash.

Then, because the game is NOT based upon visible progress (levels) but on interaction, character development in a mental way more than in a physical way, you just might be able to keep gathering small numbers of gatherers while maintaining the ones you have.

A real virtual world might be a possibility (which actually sounds somewhat creepy, as people will more and more be able to ''escape'' real life, which isn''t necessarily a good thing), a world where characters really come alive, where fighting comes with a great risk, where death is not just ''respawn and lose some experience'' and where your reputation is worth more than your power. Politics might pop up and players might actually want to take part in it. A real history of the world might develop as player''s decisions and actions decide the course of events...

Silvermyst
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quote:
Original post by Jeranon

Go play Betrayal at Krondor. Oh look, a no level RPG, although there are still stats.

I''ve played it. Nice game but it had other issues that got to me, mainly the person playing it at the time. Same powergamer who could bring the most well designed game to it''s knees in his quest to create the ultimate god character. That and if I remember correctly(much like daggerfall which was in interesting level based system) it gave you numbers to play with and it allowed you to improve yourself from doing some of the dumbest, most inane things in the world like jumping in place for several hours on end(daggerfall). I''m just ranting and I believe I''ve forgotten whatever point I was trying to make, if I was even trying to make one at all.

A.

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I was posed with a fiarly similar problem with a persistant actiojn quake liek game we were designing.

My solution was to make skills equal in importance at their highest level and to allow everyone to have a basic skill in everything. Then the idea was to have a sliding scale(imagine knots on a spline).

So,if you used your submachine gun skill very often your other skills say medic would suffer due to neglect. The skill allocation wasn''t linear either. The more you specialised the more skill you sucked from your other skills. A player with maximum skill in say sniping would be pretty useless at everything else.

I was planning on doing the same thing with attributes (running speed, pushing\kicking strength, jumping height).

All of this was calculated at runtime, so a player who spends most of his time running will become faster but will bulk down.

On futher thought I suppose I could have allowed some kind of training mode that will help accellerate the changing process.

The whole idea was to stop my players from becomming walking tanks with every conceivable item and max skills in everything. A ''good'' player just joining should have an equal opportunity of killing a llama who had been on for a while.

gimp
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Ok here''s another one for the record.

As in a lot of RPG''s your able to kill the little enemies over and over in order to gain XP easily. This was your not really risking anything in the meantime. I think this is a "weapon" that game designers have not considered balancing in a game. I''ll call it XP vulturing for the sake of argument.

I think XP vulturing is probably a kick starter to players powermaxing. It teaches them to powermax from the start. They them start to think that this is what the game is all about.

There''s one idea i''ve had to control XP vulturing. XP must have temporary caps place on them. taking Diablo for explaination, in dungeon level one you should only be allowed to power up to level 2 XP. To get your character up to Level 3 you have to kill level 2 monsters, and the trend continues throughout the game.

Or if you attack a Level 6 monster with a level 2 character you should get 3x the xp. 6 / 2 = 3x. A simple equation that i think would work.

Another idea i had is about gaining skills. It''s an idea that i wish i''d used in my DM''ing days. In order to gain skills you must travel. There''s no one place that can teach you all the skills. You could even hang plot''s and subplots off this idea. Instead of searching for the Holy Avenger you want to learn Blind fighting. You must travel to find someone to teach you forien/exotic skills. Which are essential to game completion.

You bastards :-) i''m more interested in strategy but these damn rpg posts cloud every second of my thinking time. Arrh. I can''t help myself. Must.... come..... up.... with..... crazy..... ideas. must.... yes.... good.... yes.... good.... Hmmmmmm

Can someone give me a pointer to a thread or explain more clearly what you mean by attrition.

How about being able to turn skills on and off like a switch. The more skills you turn on the easier the killing. But when you kill something the xp gets spread amongst the skill that were turned on. Thus slowing down the levelling speed.

Or some skills are advantageous at one time and others are not. So it becomes more of an issue of which skills to use and when rather than the height of ones level.

WE are their,
"Sons of the Free"
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Silvermyst, your post almost made me shed tears of joy. I look forward to it... oh yes.. =)
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Actually Silvermyst, I would like your legal permission to quote material from that reply, in the evnt that I need to create a proposal for a venture capitolist. What do you say?
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Well Now,

For me it''s simple. I love to level up as much as
I can. Special opponents that can;t be defeated
or need special objects to defeat them are also
a good idea. But for me personally I normally
finish the game before I reach the Max level up
or whatever.

STVOY

Mega Moh Mine!!
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I''ve brought up this point on another thread a while ago, and I''ll bring it up again here: MMORPGs are NOT a new thing. They''ve been around for many many years in text form. MUDs, MOOs, MUSHes, or whatever acronym you care to use, have been playing with these ideas and more for almost a decade now.
I urge everyone here to go try them out. I think you''d be suprised at how many different gameplay styles you''ll come across: everything from pure-combat to pure-roleplay.
Don''t be put-off just because they''re text based. A lot of them have some really great and innovative approaches to combat, roleplaying, and social interaction. This includes ideas put forth in this thread, such as no levels and non-combat-centric gameplay. Check them out, and you can often see how some of these ideas worked in practice.
And no, I''m not some MUD zealot. Haven''t played them for a while now, I just think that we could draw off the experience of them. Some MUDs have been up for >8 years, and are constantly evolving.

Morbo
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Morbo, I know exactly where you''re coming from. I am a MUSH veteran myself, and I wonder why it is that we can''t make room in graphical MMORPGs for that audience. It''s out there, why not use it?

"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates
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quote:
Original post by Landfish
Silvermyst, your post almost made me shed tears of joy. I look forward to it... oh yes.. =)

quote:
Original post by Landfish
Actually Silvermyst, I would like your legal permission to quote material from that reply, in the evnt that I need to create a proposal for a venture capitolist. What do you say?

Damn, I''m gonna have to pay more attention to Silvermyst''s posts. I''ve been hoping to hear stuff like that for years, and now I am, straight from ''el Pez de la Terra'' no less. Well, I *was* hoping people would be saying it to *me*...

(sigh)

ManaSink
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Has anyone considered the type of game where the goals you have to achieve are social? The ones where the stats that matter aren''t your strength or speed, but are calculated from choices you make? I admit there aren''t many of these games - offhand I can only think of Tamagotchi Boyfriend (don''t ask) and the ones where you''re a detective and you can only ask people so many questions and if you make them mad they won''t talk to you any more. Wouldn''t this kind of system be more appropriate for actual ''roleplaying'' than any kind of a physical attribute-and-weapon based system?
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