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_SKOTTIE_

Are n00bs getting lazy?

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_SKOTTIE_    122
ive been reading some of the posts on this form lately, and it seems to me that the n00bs are getting lazy. i remember when i first started out (under a different post name) and i asked questions that were specific, and down to the point. however, noobs today are posting questions like: "how do i make a game? directx or opengl? how do i make a game engine? i want to make a MMORPG but i need coders, artists, and modelers." it seems that the newbs today want things to be handed to them, so they can copy and paste code into their compilers and call themselves programmers. so to you noobies (which is not at all a negative thing): remember this: the syntax is not your most important target to learn (for game programming, but newbies to programming in general syntax is obviously important). to create games, you must be able to solve problems. which is all programming is. nothing will be as easy as Player.FightEnemy(BigBadMonster); here are some steps to take to get past your problems: 1)identify your problem, and your goal. what resources will it take? 2)break the process down into smaller problems. those are easier to solve. 3)begin to think how each smaller problem can be solved, if it cant, break THAT down into smaller steps. 4)once broken down, each mini problem can be solved with 2-3 lines of code. the main problem is slowly solved by smaller steps. 5)once it works, try to find a better way to do it. this isn''t exactly the golden guide, but it will help. instead of asking "how do i build a fighting engine?", you can ask YOURSELF "how can i have the player attack the enemy? how do i reward them for victory etc"

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
Good points but... as an attempt at explaining this and in defense of the newbies:

Back when you started, the most impressive demo was probably a ''spinning cube''. So technology started quite simple and everyone jumping onto the bandwagon at that time had little problems to keep up.

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RomSteady    248
I don''t think that laziness is entering into it. I think it''s more social conditioning than anything else.

First, some background. I will be 29 years old this week. Over the last two decades, I have seen the amount of information available to me quickly skyrocket faster than anything imaginable.

It used to be that if I needed to find something out, I''d have to walk over to the library and find the information. Because of the amount of time that would take, I found myself working a lot of stuff out on my own to avoid the time sink required to reseach it.

Now, I no longer have to do that. Thanks to the Internet, if I need some information, I simply Google for it...unless it is something that I truly want to learn.

My many years of having to hunt for the information doggedly trained me to work hard for information that I really want. However, thanks to the last ten years, many people never had that study habit ingrained into them. Instant information gratification is now expected.

Social conditioning normally is a gradual thing, but thanks to the explosion of the Internet over the last decade, we now have three generations conflicting. One generation despises the Internet, for they believe that all knowledge must be fought for. One generation accepts the Internet, but believes that knowledge should be shared. One generation lives for the Internet, and believes that information should be consumed.

Which generation are you?

RomSteady - I play games for a living.

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UltimaX    468
Amen to that.

BTW:
You forgot a step
6)Repeat step 5 to taste until the code is optimized as much as possible.

-UltimaX-

"You wished for a white christmas... Now go shovel your wishes!"

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Sneftel    1788
I shan''t copy and paste.... but I think my rants here apply to this too.


How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

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TheNerd Tk421    122
I know my problem.. i got a friggin jacked up compiler...(Dev-C++ 5) and i cant even use the win32 tutorials for making windows...I am 3.. i eat knowledge up every day.. i am almost always on a computer...

[edited by - TheNerd Tk421 on August 11, 2003 1:28:06 AM]

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Nervo    344
Romsteady, I think I might be a little of two catergories you list: fighting for it and sharing it. I''m 24. Your insight appears to have value.

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masterg    100
...

The majority of all beginning, aspiring programmers are inherently lazy, as the human race for the most part is, I''d guess. By being so, this solely helps others determine who to assist, eliminating the fools that refuse to ever research on their own part. I see no problem; simply ignore such people.

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PhiberOptic    128
I think the worst thing is that lot''s of n00bs start with 3D Engine programming, then proceed with basic C++..

A lof of n00bs on this forum does not know programming at all, and then they should not be able to call themselves gameprogramming newbies. I think one first should learn intermediate programming, then start with n00b gameprogramming.

The alternative is to start with Dark Basic or something like that, then proceed ''back'' to console-c++ programming and then back again into c++ gameprogramming.


(When I say c++ I mean a regular programming language, so it can be Java, C#, VB or something else)..


----------------------------------------------
Petter Nordlander

"There are only 10 kinds of people in the world. The who understand binary and those who don''t"

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logic monkey    122
As a n00b here, I should probably try to defend the n00bs. I think that most of those 'types' are just bored 13 yr olds. I remember being that young and having a new 'hobby' every week or so. They're not lazy, they're just getting younger probably.

Personally, as a n00b twice that age, I know I can't just type:


int main()
{
makeDoom3();
return bigMoney;
}


I have a long road ahead and I'm cool with that. I love this stuff more and more every day. I am glad GDnet is around and I like reading the forums because everyone solves a problem differently and gives me lots of perspectives beside the 'by-the-book' view.

I try to ask specific questions. I've asked some questions that could've been answered "Go look on Google" but really alot of the bookmarks I've gotten from here in the forum would probably show up on page 45 of 2000. So sometimes I like to ask for specific types of sites that people really liked on a certain topic. And I've gotten some really cool and helpful bookmarks because of it.

We're not all bad.

[edited by - logic monkey on August 11, 2003 3:44:15 AM]

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alexmoura    450
noob''s aren''t getting lazy - you''re getting old, and conveniently forgetting all the dumb questions that were also asked 3 years ago.

"I woke up sweating and clutching my pillow. Thankfully the powerful and reassuring visage of Optimus Prime staring back at me from my pillow case served to ease my frayed nerves. Like the giant robotic father I never had he always knows just what to say" - Gabe, Penny-Arcade

Alexandre Moura

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FtMonkey    122
Yeah there''s been a lot of n00bz coming in lately, maybe is because of the time of the year or something...Anyway in my opinion is not they are getting lazy but they have a better way of finding answers through this site. I did a lot of learning online as well but I never really used this site as a noob and it was extremely hard, if you are only learning online and using tutorials, etc you tend to learn slowly and that is if you learn anything at all, so if you put yourself in that position is very annoying to spend a year and not achieve anything...Of course you''ll eventually get somewhere but it takes a lot of hard work...

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Xtreme11    122
Im sure its just that the newbies can get a more personal feel when they can actually speak to people and ask their own questions as opposed to reading a fixed tutorial.

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DeathWish    122
I''m 15, and have been coding games stuff since I was 12. I''m proud to say that I''ve never posted any kind of garbage post ("how u maek gaem???//") on any forums - in fact, I haven''t made that many "help?" posts at all. I learnt through sitting down and concentrating with a book, then experimenting with what I''d learnt, which it seems that a lot of people don''t like doing.

Perhaps the general ethos of the world is changing with regards to learning - people believe that they can have everything they want to know handed to them on a platter, which simply doesn''t happen. When they don''t get what they want, they get bored and frustrated, and stop doing this new-found hobby.

It''s either that, or people just don''t like learning, which I can''t fathom, because it''s actually quite enjoyable to read about something and then be able to implement it yourself without having to ask for help from someone who''s done it before.

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SoulSkorpion    238
quote:
Original post by _SKOTTIE_
ive been reading some of the posts on this form lately, and it seems to me that the n00bs are getting lazy. i remember when i first started out (under a different post name) and i asked questions that were specific, and down to the point.

however, noobs today are posting questions like: "how do i make a game? directx or opengl? how do i make a game engine? i want to make a MMORPG but i need coders, artists, and modelers."

it seems that the newbs today want things to be handed to them, so they can copy and paste code into their compilers and call themselves programmers.

so to you noobies (which is not at all a negative thing): remember this: the syntax is not your most important target to learn (for game programming, but newbies to programming in general syntax is obviously important). to create games, you must be able to solve problems. which is all programming is. nothing will be as easy as Player.FightEnemy(BigBadMonster);

here are some steps to take to get past your problems:
1)identify your problem, and your goal. what resources will it take?
2)break the process down into smaller problems. those are easier to solve.
3)begin to think how each smaller problem can be solved, if it cant, break THAT down into smaller steps.
4)once broken down, each mini problem can be solved with 2-3 lines of code. the main problem is slowly solved by smaller steps.
5)once it works, try to find a better way to do it.


this isn''t exactly the golden guide, but it will help. instead of asking "how do i build a fighting engine?", you can ask YOURSELF "how can i have the player attack the enemy? how do i reward them for victory etc"


As I''ve said to all of these kinds of posts on other forums: there''s very little point in posts telling people to RTFM, or RTFFAQ, or do a quick Google, or do a search, or read the first few pages of the forum before posting or whatever. There''s very little point for the simple reason that people who do post these silly, easily answerable questions don''t read posts like these!

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evillive2    779
I think part of the reason for the number of newbie game programmers is that the technology to make games has become more readily available. For example, 10 years ago when I was still in high school, most people I went to school with didn''t have a computer at home, or if they did, they used it solely for writing papers and playing games like kings quest and scorched earth. The schools computer labs consisted of 15-20 286 machines on a token ring network which had no local hard drive, a 5 1/4" floppy and a 3 1/2" floppy. The only computer related courses we had were programming in BASIC and Pascal which were reserved for seniors who elected to take them (I had a total of 5 kids in my classes). Same school 10 years later now teaches basic windows/office skills to everyone and has a computer science program that offers html and beginner java. Almost every kid in the school has a home computer and they all have heard of games like quake or unreal tournament. To get to the original point, they now see it is very possible to learn how to make these games and that the game industry makes billions of dollars each year. Also, now you don''t have to spend thousands of dollars on an IDE and compiler and classes, you can download them for free and learn from places like GameDev who as the name implies is a place for game developers to ask questions. Yes, even ridiculously newbie like questions, cus lets face it... when you bought your stereo, did you RTFM?

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_SKOTTIE_    122
RTFM, RTFFAQ

i have no clue what these stand for. im thinking read the fucking manual and read the fucking faq. is this correct? am i really that intellegent?

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Waverider    169
When I would come up with a way of doing something on my own, I would pay a visit to the bookstore and thumb through a programming book to verify that it was a viable method. What I was NOT able to do was look at a variety of methods and decide for myself which was the best one. Simply put, the solution that is the balance between the fewest CPU cycles without sacrificing modifiably is the best course.

There are so many ways of doing things (methods of fast terrain rendering is a prime example - I have yet to understand the concepts), you almost have to kickstart yourself by asking a base question just to get some direction.

It was easier for me to design my own ways of doing things when 3D gaming on the PC was in its infancy, and we were all developing our methods along with the developers. Of course, I did a little too much "research" (that is, I discovered some games that were just ahead of how I could program but I enjoyed very much, so I kept playing them to enjoy myself and explore how it was done) and fell behind.

Now we have shaders, multitexturing, dynamic terrain that uses alpha blending to fade in at the distance, fog volumes, models that adjust themselves seemlessly, from point blank rendering out to infinity. Whew. Where does one begin?

You almost have to know exactly WHAT you want to do before you even get started. That, or get a book or visit a site that takes you through some base exercises to take you through the basics of how certain things work and introduce you to some more advanced problem solving that lends itself well to solving today's problems.

For me, sometimes the barrier is meeting the demands of what today's problem solving requires (drab), versus coming up with my own idea of what can be done and realizing that today's industry would actually enjoy it as something new (cool).


[edited by - Waverider on August 11, 2003 11:45:02 AM]

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MasterInsan0    122
As a noob myself to game programming, I hope I can contribute something useful to this post. I tried doing things the easy way first. I started with RPGMaker2000, then went to Dark Basic, and then I came to what the "real" game programmers use, C and C++.

I think the reason people want everything handed to them is because they''re used to it being easy. There is no engine programming in RPGMaker 2000; it''s all done for you. You don''t need to remember to initialize, deinitialize, and render every frame in Dark Basic, all you need to do is say "Do this: Draw me a sphere and make it spin. Loop this." You don''t need modular programming methods in DB (although you can use them). All of these easy features of the easy game-creation-software are causing noobs to expect C/C++ to not be much harder.

Another problem is that C/C++ tricks you early on. At first it''s as simple as: cout << "Hello world!"

Then, it becomes a war with memory management, checking for input, rendering on a frame-by-frame basis, etc. Honestly, I have not been very successful in programming, and my text game I was writing in C++ failed when I realized I needed to parse the commands somehow. I haven''t done a 2D game yet, nor have I done a 3D game yet.

I would really love to, and that''s where software that makes work instantly or nearly instantly tangible, such as the previously mentioned examples, become an option for the noobs. I have gone back and forth from C to Dark Basic many times, and every time I go to DB, I want to come back to C. Every time I go to C again, I find myself wanting the instant gratification of the easier software again.

One of John Carmacks'' .plan updates made me go back to C again (one of his older ones), where he discusses how he simply gutted the Quake 3 engine and began work on the Doom 3 engine and had a working prototype in 3 weeks or so. I know that I couldn''t do this, but it sounds so...appetizing to be one day able to do such things and have such proficiency in C/C++/Game Programming/(Your graphics API of Choice).

All of these things combined might be a cause for some of the noob laziness. I honestly hope I never become that lazy, but I also hope that newer people are given help when appropriate. Now, I''m off to try to get help with that text game (actually, the parser for the game).

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justo    184
quote:
Original post by Lektrix
God, the irony of this thread and the replies is overwhelming.



hahaha, no kidding. seriously folks, we''re just getting old. every generation says something like this about the next one. it''s just how it works.

youngsters these days just dont know how to learn any more! why back in my day...

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raging_jakl    122
Perhaps a better question is "Are people getting more arrogant?" I don''t like this "noob" complex many people adopt. Sometimes I think that people''s arrogance or their false sense of "their" superiority labels others as "noobs" when it may not be true.

If you don''t like the post, then skip it. It isn''t that hard.

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GamerSg    378
I would say it is bcos of 2 reasons.

1) Games these days are just so great that many ppl starting out cannot accept the fact that 200-300 lines of code are needed to just open a window and perhaps have a spinning triangle there. Ten years ago, anything 3D would have been considered a big deal. They start to ask themselves, how am i going to make the next great game if im going to spend so much time to do something trivial. It takes alot of time if you want to start out by making your own engine. If you feel that you do not want to go down to such a low level, i suggest you can start by making games by using other freely available game engines.

2)With many level editors now available which are fairly easy to use, people think that making a full game wouldnt be that much harder. Actually making levels is a great way to start out if you feel going down to C++/Gfx API is too complex. Good level editors like warcraft3 lvl editor allow someone to create something interactive with relative ease.

Level Editors
High Level, less flexibility.You are usually stuck with the game''s graphics, interface and many other things.

Game Engine
You dont need to make a whole game engine to make a game.
Tribes 2, Halflife, Counter-strike, Jedi Knight 2 were all great games that were built upon existing game engines. Also you still retain alot of flexibility. The only downside is that you will be limited by some of the game engine''s core features.

Making Your Own Engine
No easy task, but is a real learning experience and gives you maximum control. You can model your engine to suit your game.


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