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what are the impact on C# to c and C++?? would it be easilier to program games and faster and smaller?? any ideas??

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what in the world is c#?

Sometimes even chickens need to eat... Don't bang your head against a wall just to enjoy the good feeling when you stop.

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I bet it will crap out. That''s what happens when you mix Microsoft, C++, and Java together into one language. I''m interested to see how fast it''s compiled code is.

JoeMont001@aol.com

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It''s my understanding that C# is compiled to byte-code and will execute using a VM like Java. It''s also supposed to be machine independent. As far as programming games, I don''t think it will be faster than C++, just because of the VM and machine independence.
If C# is anything like other Microsoft products, wait until version 3. The first two releases will probably not be stable .

-MartinJ

If the story, "The Tortoise and the Hare" were written today, would the energizer bunny win?

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When the hell are they gonna stop creating new languages... I''m sick of all the crap coming out on the market all the time... Why don''t they just leave it the way it is at least once in this lifetime... damn... you gotta be a genuis to keep up with the industry and all the micro$HIT they have... grrr... The only thing I need is C/C++ and Pascal... Puck the rest...

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C# will have no impact (or almost no impact) on existing languages like C/C++/Java. While none are perfect, they work well enough, are widely accepted, and for the most part standardized.

I haven''t looked at the C# language reference yet (I''m downloading it now), and so -- AS A LANGUAGE -- I won''t rule it out until I''ve seen the spec. However, I''m not expecting anything groundbreaking.

The threat of C# is to the Internet arena. Microsoft tampered with the specification of Java in their implementation, and got slapped on the hand for it. But now they have their own Java-like language. What happens if they implement it in their browser and remove Java? Everyone knows that software and websites most often cater to the majority platform, which is Windows/IE.

So to make their websites visible and interactive, they have to drop Java development and pick up C# development. (If it''s similar enough to Java, they may end up switching to C# almost involuntarily.) Microsoft controls C#, so now other browsers have to license C# from Microsoft for their browsers, or relinquish the browser market to Microsoft (since any C# web pages won''t work in the browser).

Assuming the language is similar to C/C++/Java as I expect, this is really Microsoft creating their own custom version of Java, calling it something other than Java to make it legal, and forcing it down your/our/everyone''s throat.

(Note: this is my opinion and purely speculation. I think I''m right but I might be wrong. Judge for yourself.)


---- --- -- -
Blue programmer needs food badly. Blue programmer is about to die!

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To me it looked like Microsoft changed a few default behaviours that may irk some people who program in C++/Java. This reminded me of the time that I spent learning Microsoft''s version of DHTML. You could do so much more stuff than you could in Netscape DHTML. But the whole DHTML thing turned out to be no revolution, right? People (like me) were bogged down with supporting both Netscape and Explorer, and so most of those extra features were thrown out the window and declared useless. I don''t know if it was Microsoft''s aim to have it''s version of DHTML be the killer app, but what I do know is, that is not how Microsoft conquered Netscape (at least on MS platforms, all unix/linux/solaris/sgi users still only have Netscape nowadays). I believe that the incompatibility issues between browsers buoyed Netscape up for a while in the Windows market.

So that relates to C# like this. At first everyone will go run to check it out, some companies will spend many man hours to get compatibilities ironed out. Other companies won''t. And if the whole conglomerate of web-developers and online entertainment people sense in the tiniest bit that C# is turning out to be a flop then they won''t try it, success stories or not.

Another point, what types of killer apps can you create with an online medium? What types of local C# applications can you create that would work better than C/C++ compiled applications? I''ve tried a few apps that were pure Java (i.e. JBuilder) and they were slow!
[if there is no sandbox] What do you do to prevent hostile COM objects? [endif]

So, I haven''t concluded much here, except that we''ll have to wait and see what Microsoft''s vision for C# entails and then we wait a little longer until after it''s released and see what others do with it. If we like what we see (enough to pursue solely the Windows platform) then we dump Java, Netscape, and Linux to target this new and exciting technology. If we''re not impressed enough to deal with the compatibility issues then we stick with Java and the current state of cross-platform technology.

Sorry if I haven''t given you anything more or less than my idea of a 50% chance of acceptance, but I had to mention some of (what I perceived) the unmentioned topics.

joeG

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Has anyone seen the C# language reference? It is the most unintuitive mix of Java, C/C++, and VB (thats right) I have ever seen. Most ideas used in C# have been stolen from VB, and called a new language. I consider it a laughable copy of C++ with some keyword changes. I dislike C++ but still hope it beats out C# (C pound baby!!) in the most users. I see many trying, and few straying from the C++ path to go to a closed source demon who will immeadiatly start charging us for compilers (if they wont at first) if C# becomes a hit. I doubt any game programmers will like it, being a new language the compiler will suck and Java will kick it in the buttox. Whew, need air.

-----------------------------

A wise man once said "A person with half a clue is more dangerous than a person with or without one."

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Windows only. Forget it. I like the option of portability. C/C++ is the way to go for me.

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I read through the language specs from M$. It really looks somehow like VB ;-)) They made something between Java and C++. It gets rid of all the old C stuff like procedural programming, the runtime lib, pointers.... but still has the option to use them. COM is integrated into the language (like in VB), that''s a good thing since handling COM yourself is a major problem... But I would''nt suggest anyone to use C#. Better remain with C++. C++ should be MUCH faster and you are independent of M$. Sure coding is harder with C++, but there are more people using C++ than java. So there''s really no point..

Tim

--------------------------
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glvelocity.gamedev.net
www.glvelocity.com

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I suspect that (for now, at any rate) C# will have no impact on the games industry. It looks like it could be a very powerful tool for server components, though.

To be honest, the world really needs new programming languages. So many of the things you can''t do in C++, Java and other languages are basically arbitrary [and can often be implemented in the specific sense, but rarely the general]. It really is a shame that much of the cool language research being done doesn''t filter into mainstream languages more quickly. :-(

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This is just another way for Microsoft to extend its power. If we don''t cooperate, maybe "Wild Bill" will leave the language creation world alone!

- DarkMage139
"Real game developers don't change the rules. Real game developers don't break the rules. Real game developers make the rules!"
"Originality (in games) is the spice of life!"

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Apparently, internally Microsoft isn''t placing too much hope in C# and actually looking more seriously at ObjC as the true evolution of the C++/Java institution.

-RotoMuffin

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duh.. making games for a VM?
I don''t think so...


    
if (c#) {
ShowBlueScreen("Error: Oops, M$ has formatted your HD please restart!");
}



--- Richard ----------

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quote:
Apparently, internally Microsoft isn''t placing too much hope in C# and actually looking more seriously at ObjC as the true evolution of the C++/Java institution.


Where did you get that from?

Hmm, apparently I''m in the minority here (from what I''ve seen I like C# ).

--TheGoop

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This is just an attempt to keep the company together. Notice how Microsoft is going to append .Net into all it''s products. In the Appellete(?) Courts, microsoft lawyers (The Scum that they are) are going to argue that the company is too tied together to split up. Also, to Microsoft, there is only three platforms: Windows NT, Windows 9x, and Windows CE. Why not get rid of all the cross platform languages (Java, C/C++) by creating an all in one alterative. Or this could really be the next big language. /*Laugh*/

I''ve read half of the spec, and it looks like a mix of C++, Java, and VB. With all the C style stuff being stuffed into ''unsafe'' code blocks.

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I actually think C# looks pretty cool... I mean, it doesn't look too feasible for game development, but it does look like it could be pretty cool for some stuff. It's neat how EVERYTHING is derived from "object," even basic types, in my opinion. It could make some stuff easier... Not that I like the removal of all things procedural, but I don't see why people would have a problem with the existence of another language. Just don't use it if you don't want to. (And the "unsafe" label for some code is actually kind of laugable... the document said something about it being impossible for unsafe code to "masquerade" as safe code. I find that hilarious )

By the way, did anyone else notice that, on the MSDN site on the C# page when they were listing the other products contained with Visual Studio, that they "neglected" to mention Visual J++? But I was under the impression that C# was NOT a response to Java (hehehe). It sure as hell LOOKS alot like Java anyway

Anyway, I just think it looks like it could be interesting, even if it does flop.

Edited by - Qoy on June 27, 2000 1:18:34 AM

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I like it. I don''t know how good it is or if I''ll ever use it but I think it is pretty clear that it isn''t bad. It might be the greatest thing ever. The simple truth is that C++ is bad. Pointers, ugly syntax, and the lack of mandatory features (garbage collection for example) really makes it something we need to get rid of. Sure people program in C++ all the time but that''s because there isn''t anything else, except java but java is missing some stuff. As for platform independance who cares? I mean it''s not like MS is going to go away anytime soon. Does any gamer envision buying another OS anytime soon?

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quote:
from the specs
The source code for a C# program is typically stored in one or more text files with a file extension of .cs, as in hello.cs. Using the command-line compiler provided with Visual Studio, such a program can be compiled with the command line directive
csc hello.cs
which produces an executable program named hello.exe. The output of the program is:
Hello, world



Note the words COMPILED and EXECUTABLE PROGRAM. Doesn''t sound like a VM to me, you guys read too much in that very crappy CNet article.

I think I like the language. Integration with both COM and XML can NOT be a bad thing, certainly not for web development. And while you are all saying "it''s not very good for game development", what will happen if all of a sudden you can do a web version of Doom that runs fast enough on most computers? Sure, it won''t have LOD landscapes and curved surfaces, but that''s damned powerful for something that might be browser based.
( Read: More Online RPGs coming that you can shake a stick at )

I''d like to try it out, could be an interesting experience.

Give me one more medicated peaceful moment..
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important functions will be disabled from now on.

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I just glanced at the language spec. I think C# is just Java, but M$ proprietary, a bit faster, with more bugs and without the security and stability of Java.

If M$ can''t even make their mail client behave like it should, what do you think their programming language will be like?

I just don''t feel comfortable using a language that is owned by a company...

Just my 0.02$...

Dormeur

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