A weird function.

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27 comments, last by ToohrVyk 20 years, 8 months ago
quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
quote:Original post by Zipster
Although it was more like, "between any two rational numbers there is an irrational number."

Also, between any two irrational numbers there is a rational number...

Well yes, that would be an implicit corollary
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I thought I read somewhere (probably isaic asimov''s "on numbers" book) that there were more irrational than rational numbers (a higher density of irrational numbers.)

But if ''between any two rational numbers there is an irrational number'' and the inverse is true, doesn''t that say that for then range of 0 -> largest irrational number < 1 the densities would be equal?

Could someone please clear this one up for me?


-Michael
Nope, that doesn''t mean the density is the same, because this theorem says "there is at least one" of each between two irrational numbers, it does not specify how many of each, or their densities.

Similarly, for each irrational number x , there exists an integer n so that n > x, and for each integer n there exists an irrational number x so that x > n. But IR \ Q is far more infinite than IN.

Where does the "more infinite" result come from? I don''t know the english version of the world, but it could be something like "countability". What the? Well, it means that you can count all elements in a set (that is, tie at least one number to each element) without forgetting any. A countable set is therefore less infinite than an uncountable set. We have two important results :

Q is countable ( 0 for 0, 1 for 1, 2 for -1, 3 for 1/2,4 for -1/2, 5 for 1/3, 6 for -1/3, 7 for 2/3...) : using that method you can tie one integer to each rational number.

IR is uncountable : suppose it was, and write each real number xn in [0,1] as the series of digits 0,xn1xn2xn3...

We therefore have a series of real numbers xn where n is an integer tied to xn. We can build the real y = 0,y1y2y3y4y5... where yk = 0 if xkk > 0 and yk = 1 if xkk = 0. This number has at least one digit of difference with ANY of the reals in the series xn. But since we counted all the elements in [0,1], and y is not in the series, y is not in that range. But IT IS! Therefore, IR is uncountable.

Since Q is countable and IR is uncountable, then IR\Q must be uncountable too (or we''d have a way to count IR), which means IR\Q is "more infinite" than Q.

ToohrVyk

quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original post by Anonymous Poster

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original post by Zipster
Although it was more like, "between any two rational numbers there is an irrational number."
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Also, between any two irrational numbers there is a rational number...



first states: R I R
second states: I R I

Also, between any two numbers is another number.

so take the first state:
R I R, is also:
R (I) I R - In these cases there is an R between the 2 I's
R I (I) R - ...R I (R) I R...

R (R) I R - These cases the number in between is R
R I (R) R

So between any two rational numbers is a rational number, and between any two irrationals is an irrational.

Whee!







[edited by - stonicus on August 22, 2003 3:51:20 PM]
quote:But IR \ Q is far more infinite than IN.


Hehe. "More Infinite" is a weird term, but pefectly legal.

Take the set of all Even Numbers and take the set of all Even Numbers Divisable By 5 (10, 20, 30... etc)

Both sets are infinite. However, the set all evens contains the entire set of (Evens / 5) plus some. So while both are infinite, between any non-infinite range, the set of all Evens will have more elements.

EDIT: I guess in the range of (9, 11), those two sets will have the same size (1).

[edited by - stonicus on August 22, 2003 3:52:46 PM]
quote:Original post by ToohrVyk
Where does the "more infinite" result come from? I don''t know the english version of the world, but it could be something like "countability".

I think it''s the "cardinality", or "power" of a set.
No, Stonicus that is totally wrong. The two sets you describe have the same cardinality. They are both countable (aleph 0).
It is clear there is a one-to-one mapping between the sets 2Z and 10Z (i.e. the sets {t: t=2n, n e Z} and {t: t=10n, n e Z} ).
You just times or divide by 5 respectively. (the e stands for subset of. I cannot do the right e).
The fact that there are other mappings is irrelevant to cardinality, a single one-to-one is sufficient to show equal cardinality.

While we are here I might as well straighten things up for the rest of you.
Most sets are countable (a.k.a. aleph 0) meaning there exists a one-to-one mapping between that set and the natural numbers (1,2,3...). The set of reals is not countable. It''s cardinality is known as the continuum or aleph 1. The proof it is not countable is simple:
Assume it is countable.
Then there is a list in order of all the reals.
Construct a new real such that its first digit of its decimal expansion differs from the first digit of the first real in the list. THen the second differing from the second of the second. And so on. This real is not in the list as it differs from every listed real, yet we have every real listed. Hence, reals are unlistable (uncountable).

Countables include integers and rationals. Uncountables form the majority of numbers.

The problem is damn clever though, I doubt I could get that solution
sandwanmage : I thought I''d given that IR proof up there
So you did. Sorry, kinda got carried away on my post and forgot.

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