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Hey! I need some H E L P! :-)

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I am on a quest to make a 3D game. I''ve learnt some basic stuff about programming. DOS applications mostly, but I don''t remember that much of it. However, I have some experience with general loops and such things, and I am not an idiot either so I have confidence in my quest. The only problem is when it comes to Maths, since you all speak English on these forums it''s hard to translate all the concept to Swedish, but I hope that will solve itself as well. So my questions are; 1) What do I need to learn do make a DOOM I type 3d engine? 2) What langugage to I code in, etc? 3) Are there some good tutorials on this, and need I buy some books? 4) Would it be stupid to make a DOOM I type engine instead of a more advanced one, even for a beginner? I''m planning to have it done in 6 months or so, but I have limited time to learn and script it as well. 5) Would it take a lot of time to make a game using an engine? Again DOOM I.

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well i am a beginner also, i just made a simple 2d alien invader type game, but i try to answer a few things anyway.

> 1) What do I need to learn do make a DOOM I type 3d engine?
i'd say OpenGL, and Math

> 2) What langugage to I code in, etc?
C++ (notice the ++)

> 3) Are there some good tutorials on this, and need I buy some > books?
books are nice to look things up, i am sure you'll find some good book to buy on this site.

> 4) Would it be stupid to make a DOOM I type engine instead of a more advanced one, even for a beginner? I'm planning to have it done in 6 months or so, but I have limited time to learn and script it as well.
i think so yes, only because DOOM is old dosen't mean its trivial. You better start with small little tiny games.

> 5) Would it take a lot of time to make a game using an engine? Again DOOM I.
yes

Lazzar

[edited by - Lazzar on August 19, 2003 6:51:47 AM]

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Welps..
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672318350/ref=sr_aps_books_1_3/202-0625286-4283022

if you aint stoopid...get that book. It tells you how to write a 3d engine using only one thing. PlotPixel().

I dont have the book but i believe its good.

If your not looking to learn in this kind of depth then learn DirectX or OpenGL.

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Of that 6 months, you will need atleast 3 months to be comfortable enough with opengl/3d concepts to make a doom like game. Since all you have done is DOS programming, you have quite alot to learn. If you don''t slack in the 6 months, you could make it.

1&2) You would need to use a programming language like C/C++ or any other which supports OpenGL or DirectX. Though i reccommend C/C++ because it''s easier to get resources and tutorials for them.

3)Nehe and GameTutorials.com are very good websites for tutorials.

4)By DoomI i would think you are referring to a 3d world with textured polygons, monsters, First Person Shooter, weapons, other misc stuff. If that is it, it is no simple task for a beginner, but if you think you are up to it, you can do even more. However considering you want to do it in 6 months, you should stick to this.

5) Using an engine would mean you have 50-75% of the programming work done for you. You would just need the game logic, But you would need to concentrate on your graphics, sound and design too. So it''s still going to take some time.



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I''ll vouch for ACAC, the book he suggested is great, but its rather hard-core with a lot of math and a much lower level of thinking compared to something like DX or OGL.

Doom, I think is doable, if you''re done at least one other game project or have a good bit of experience. I''m sure there are tons of tutorials on doom style raycasters, you may want to take it up a notch to something more like Duke Nukem 3D; just a thought, but keep your goals at a level where you can accomplishe them. And as far as engines go, sometimes they''re almost as hard to learn how to use properly as they are to make yourself, especially simpler ones.

Ravyne, NYN Interactive Entertainment
[My Site][My School][My Group]

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Excuse me but ain''t it more simple to write a software renderer for Doom-style game?Or a ray-caster for Wolf-style game?

"Tonight we strike,there is thunder in the sky,together we''ll fight,some of us will die,but they''ll always remember that we''ve made a stand and many will die by hand!" - ManOwaR

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Thanks for the comments, guys. You seem to be pros at this.

Firstly the actual game comes in second hand (if I manage to make an engine, the game could be 1 level with 1 gun or something like that). Or probably I'll make it later as an addition to myself rather than the project.

I won't use an already made engine because the project would be about making an engine :-) The features such as physics would probably be narrowed down to not falling through the floor or not being able to walk through walls.

But I'll look into some tutorials and see if I can get something animated in 3D. What would really help, though is to get some site or book where a guy has done exactly what I am doing, to create a 3D engine.

Only one person said it was impossible so from now on: Outlook is good.


Also; is the actual coding a BIG part? Such as I will need to write a thousand pages of code or does the problem lie in understanding how all this works?

(p.s. I also noticed that the DOOM I sourcecode is avaibile for download, but for the linux version. Hm?)

(p.p.s. Is there anywhere I can read a few chapters of that book for free? I figured maybe you can make a few "fake" polygons in a 2D window by just giving points xy and a fictive z values and then calculating triangles between them, and then drawing lines of the appropriate length... I'll try this but no need to comment on it.)


[edited by - PelleTM on August 19, 2003 8:40:52 AM]

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quote:
Original post by PelleTM
Also; is the actual coding a BIG part? Such as I will need to write a thousand pages of code or does the problem lie in understanding how all this works?



The coding side is a huge part in all of this. You can literally write 1,000s of lines of code for something like this.

quote:

(p.s. I also noticed that the DOOM I sourcecode is avaibile for download, but for the linux version. Hm?)



DOOM was developed way back when even ensuring compatibility between different DOS versions, was quite a large problem. There weren''t generic APIs around that exist today, which would have made producing it, that bit more difficult. Being as the game industry was still emerging from simple 2D games, I''d imagine that Linux hadn''t emerged as a profitable gaming system yet, hence why there is no engine port available.

There might be a Linux version around somewhere, though. Someone''s already made GLDoom, which uses more recent graphics rendering techniques.

quote:

(p.p.s. Is there anywhere I can read a few chapters of that book for free? I figured maybe you can make a few "fake" polygons in a 2D window by just giving points xy and a fictive z values and then calculating triangles between them, and then drawing lines of the appropriate length... I''ll try this but no need to comment on it.)



Check that Amazon link you''ve been given. Amazon sometimes allow you to look at a few sample chapters, so you might be in luck. Failing that, I hear that Sweden is pretty much the IT capital of Europe, so perhaps a local library might have a copy?

--hellz

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It''s not impossible, but I''ve been programming (lightly) for around 2 years and I still am no where near being able to create any 3d game save one really cool project I did for Psychology (it was a 3d maze... kinda like the Win Screensaver).

My advice:
You''re not going to be able to finish a doom game any time soon. Probably not this year. Nevertheless, learn as much as you can about the following things:

* Win32 (ie: how to create graphical programs)
* SDL (ie: the EASY way to create graphical programs)
* OpenGL (the honorable 3d graphics library)
* DirectX (the evil graphics, audio, and input handling)
* Trigonometry (if you try to tell me you can program graphics w/o trig, I''d laugh at you... really hard)
* Linear Algebra (vectors and matricies... know them well!)

And yes, try for smaller projects first. You need to learn what you must consider when designing a 3d game. You need to learn the stuff that comes only from experience.

I remember when I got out of my first Comp Sci class in high school, I thought I knew it all about C and C++..... After I tried working on a few simple games, I realised that my understanding of pointers was still really fuzzy. Only after typing thousands of lines of code do I finally have a good understanding of how they work.

My point, sweet and simple. Read books on 3d math and OpenGL and practice programming graphical programs.

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Speaking of 3D Math, is there a book you have in mind to recommend? I''ve all but forgotten linear algebra and trig. (left school 7 years ago, and haven''t used it since...), but I''m eager to pick it up again.

Just slightly off topic. ;-)

--hellz

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Look on amazon.com

There are many reviewers who are in the top 1000 who, if you email them and speak politely and respectfully, will be happy to help you find a book.

e.g.:
Good:

Dear So and so,
I read your review on The Matrix: Linear Algebra Reloaded with great interest. I saw that you gave it five stars, however many people gave Gaussian Transformers: More than Meets the Eye some excellent reviews and compared that book more favourably than tm:lar. Since you are a top 500 reviewer, I thought you might have some interesting reasons why you thought TM:LAR was the book to get.

I took classes in the subject seven years ago but haven't touched the subject since and was hoping you could suggest which book you think would be a better starting point for my adventures through orthogonal subspace?

Thank you for your time,
name

Bad:
Hey Dude,
You review loads of books so tell me what linear algebra book to get

Thnx!
-OVERLORD HACKOR-
[giant shitty sig]

reaction:

I can't help you. Sorry.

re-reaction:

YOU ARE A LOSER! YOU STUPID JERK! I WILL HACK YOU!

EDIT:
I wan't implying anyone in this thread would use the bad example. I thought some of the people who help a lot of people and sometimes put up with the bad example would get a smile out of it.

[edited by - flangazor on August 19, 2003 11:51:53 AM]

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LOL. Thanks for the help mate. I didn''t realise people actually e-mailed the reviewers, so I''ll definitely give that a shot in a bit.

Thanks a lot and keep working at those bad examples. ;-)

--hellz

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haha,I do think DOOM 1 is cool at that time.
Nowadays,although we''re playing counter-strike,I still remember and wanna play DOOM with my friends.

And I am just a beginner too

Thanks for listening

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Ok...

Bleh! I really wanted to make a 3D game. :-/

Anyhow.

Is a 2D game easier to do? I suppose that''s barely anything more than maths and bitmap pictures that you move around on the screen. But still could be made cool.

Anyone with experience, if a 3D game is HARD then is a 2D game EASY or MEDIUM or HARD?

About the Doom engine, I meant that there was ONLY a Linux version out. But nevermind about that.

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Do lots of standard C++ stuff. I have been doing C++ for 6 months now. I am nowhere near making it to 3D. I got OpenGL Game Programming, and understood most of the stuff. But when I hity the chapter "Advanced Texture Mapping", I got confused out of my mind and couldn''t go on any further. I am reading the free Bruce Eckel TICPP books right now. They are really good. You should read them if you haven''t already.

Scott Simontis
If it wasn''t for C, we''d be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL

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quote:
Original post by PelleTM
1) What do I need to learn do make a DOOM I type 3d engine?
2) What langugage to I code in, etc?
3) Are there some good tutorials on this, and need I buy some books?
4) Would it be stupid to make a DOOM I type engine instead of a more advanced one, even for a beginner? I''m planning to have it done in 6 months or so, but I have limited time to learn and script it as well.
5) Would it take a lot of time to make a game using an engine? Again DOOM I.


2) I suggest C++, but mostly any language will do.
3) I liked Object-Oriented Programming in C++ by Robert Lafore for the basics. I don''t havn''t found a good 3D Graphics book yet (I have four), I''ve just been using online tutorials.
4) If your just starting, it will take you six months to get a single window up. I actually suggest something less. 3D is a damn lot of work. I suggest simple Pong using DX or OpenGL first.
5) Depends on the engine. About five years ago, I make a VB engine that could get a descent 2D game up and running in 2 hours, while the one that my programming buddy made took about 8 hours to make the same game. I''m now porting the engine to C++, and believe me, it''s a lot of work.




quote:
Original post by PelleTM
If a 3D game is HARD then is a 2D game EASY or MEDIUM or HARD?

WAY easier. Put it this way, in a 2D game, all you have to worry about is in you draw one picture infront, or behind of another picture. In a 3D game, there are millions of more things to worry about: light, texturing, bumpmaping, blah blah blah ^ 5...

For a beginner, 2D is the way to go. Just a ship flying a round randomly is an amazing accomplishment.



Rob Loach
Current Project: Go Through Object-Oriented Programming in C++ by Robert Lafore

"The question is not how far, the question is do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as is needed?"
- The Boondock Saints

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