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The FPS-RTS

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Basically I''ve become intrigued by this idea and wanted to hear some input on it. Essentially what I''m thinking of is an RTS in which the player is in fact a commander on the ground, who generally does not partake in the hand to hand fighting (of course they can - with whatever weapons they can acquire). The idea would be that they can build structures and units much like any other RTS but which have the sorts of scales one might expect compared to an individual human. Basically what I''m wondering is, could this conceivably be done? The success of games like C&C Generals leads me to believe that it could be, since they utilize a fully 3D landscape, and hence path-finding and such could be rationalized in a similar sort of fashion as they do. Of course there are still other issues - but what does everyone think of the idea? ---- flying starfish

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Guest Anonymous Poster
I think Renegade was something along these lines...?

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It could work - though it depends how much of each style you want to borrow - do you want the player to be stopping and starting as they select units and give them orders or do you largely automate everything and give the player only a limited input on the action.

Do you let the player only control one unit - or do you have the others automated and the player swaps which one they control at any one time....

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I think we need a FDQ (Frequent Design Questions) to go with the FAQ as this RTS+FPS suggestion seems to pop up fairly regularly.

I think the Battlezone remake from Activision attempted this (although in that you did take part in the action).

The key is the interface. How does a player in first person view position a building behind the one that is currently filling their view or on the otherside of the hill or the far end of the map. How do you select the unit that is behind a building/unit/across the other end of the map.

If you have to leave first person view and go back to third person (RTS view) then what is the point? RTS games are so fast paced that you wont have time to sit in first person view admiring the shiny 3D buildings. You need to be controlling your buildings and units wherever they are on the map.

What do you get from first person view and how do you control the game?

Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions
Game Development & Design consultant

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Maybe have a look at Natural Selection, a half-life modification.. though multiplayer it comes pretty close to what you''re describing..

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Haven''t any of you played Sacrifice, by Shiny Entertainment? That game was heaps of fun, and was an incredibly successful (IMHO) attempt at putting the player directly into the battle.

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Ok, I sortof know what you mean. I am sortof making something sortof simialar to what you are talking about (and yes, I do know that ''sortof'' is not a real word).
The player is going to get bored of his head if he is walking around in a warzone, holding a gun but cannot fight because he has important organizing to do. Also, sopose the player choses to send a bunch of forces somewhere (via a map or something as such)... he wont even see what happens to them because the attack force quickly dissapears over a nearby hill. Then two minutes later the all-so-annoying ''unit lost'' music starts (''unit-lost-unit-lost-unit-lost'' remember good-old C&C) and the player knows that his forces have got into a battle, but what can you do? The forces are miles away, and you cannot see what the hell is going on. Imagine it. You could tag along with the attack force but the what if your base is attacked? Understand the flaws?
When I said I was making something similar to what you are discussing, here is what I ment. My game is a 2D top-down view action/wargame, where there are two teams fighting for control of a map. Each team is a group of 4 platoons, and each platoon is made up of five to eight soldiers(AI). One soldier in each platoon is the platoon-leader. He tells his men what to do with simple talk-commands such as ''Move out'' and ''Take Cover''.
Here is a real-time stratergy (so there is no base-building etc, but by defenition my game has a huge stratergy factor and plays in real-time) where the player is actually placed into the battlefield. The player can chose to join a platoon, or he can chose to lead a platoon. Either way, he is just one of the many soldiers.
So here is this sort of thing, and it works well, it is fun to play. What you need to realise is that as soon as you put the player onto the ground his commanding abilities drop dramaticly, and therefore you need to dramaticly reduce the amount of cammanding you player is requirred to do. You can''t expect the player to do the same stuff he would do in a traditional RTS. I have minimised the commanding the player must do in my game to a mere platoon-level. Instead of ordering a whole army arround the player orders a whole six men. And if the player dies in combat, another soldier takes over leadership.
Of course what you could do is have the player be able to switch between overhead and ''action'' views/modes, as seen before, but then why would the player want to give up overhead view for first-person? All I am saying is that you won''t be able to make a full-blown RTS as a FPS, it won''t work. You can, however, make a FPS with good stratergy/leadership elements in it.
And now I am wondering why the hell I wrote so much...

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by gn0m3
The game <a href = "http://www.projectvisitor.com">Project Visitor</a> is sort of like this, it might be worth checking out...



WOW some one is making a 10Six server emulator thats cool!

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
WOW some one is making a 10Six server emulator thats cool!



Yeah, they''ve replaced all the in game textures and all the copywritten material, Marty''s got servers and the like all set up and the game''s been up for a while now. Check out VBCnetwork for more information

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Dungeon Keeper 1 and 2.

I loved posessing an imp then running through one of my friends'' dungeon (when I was playing against them in multiplayer) and just bashing down all of their walls.

Also, it was fun to posess a unit with a projectile weapon and join in a battle as a sniper in the back lines.

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While designing my wargame, I eventually realized that what I really wanted was essentially a Commander Simulator. In other words, I wanted the player to experience what commanders on the battlefield must actually think about. Naturally, a logical extension of this idea is to get rid of the whole top-down, bird's eye view of the battlefield and replace it with whatever is technologically feasible given the technology of the time. Since my game setting takes place in the future, a commander could have a top-down view if he has orbital supremacy. One of the overriding design goals of my game is to eliminate the player as a god-like being when it comes to control of units, information gathering (even from his own units), and communication capacities.

So I too thought about having the avatar...the manifestation of the player...in a first person camera perspective, and acting with the environment to control units as technology permits. So in a pre-radio environment, messengers, runners or flags would be used to communicate orders with appropriate lag times for response and the possibility of orders not getting through. Another aspect that appealed to me is the ability to experience the first hand horrors of war rather than being a detached REMF (rear echelon mother f*cker). If your position is about to be overrun by enemy forces, it creates a much more tense situation. Conversely, seeing dead troops littering the battlefield is more visceral than just seeing a little icon go poofy.

The real trick in handling something like this is the interface between the player to the avatar, and the avatar to his Commanders which in turn give orders to his subordinates on down. I think by borrowing concepts from roleplaying games and adventure games, you can have interactive tools that the avatar can use to give orders such as radioes, mobile command vehicles, command bunkers, CCC 3d HUD rooms, etc.

[edited by - dauntless on August 24, 2003 2:49:05 PM]

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Now, I've just been reading this post, and I may have come up with an idea that would lessen the interface issue. I havent exactally meditated on it, but here goes!

Instead of first person view, you see 3rd person. You are in control of one unit at a time in this view. However, you can zoom out to the bigger picture like in most RTSs. You can then build buildings, all that stuff. However, units are trained as part of a platoon that can only be controled by you being one of those units; the view zooms in to this unit that you now control. From there you order the other units in your platoon. The idea being you split up the action into two stages having relativly little overlap in your abilities in either mode. The action wont be as epic because your armies are small and divided, but it would be more squad-based. This obviously wouldn't work for some instances (Civilization - 10 soldiers can't exactally conquer a contenent), but it could fit in very well in others (Red Alert - think how many times you had Tanya, a medic, and 5 other units with the mission of destroying the fortified Soviet base).

[edited by - SubQuantum on August 25, 2003 12:04:54 AM]

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Heres my take on a fps and rts mix

My games it basically in the traditional rts view collection resources building a base and building an army but you can zoom into the world and take direct control of any of your units and control it like you would if you were playing a fps imagine command and comqure if you could do this with thw commando or tania

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I find with RTSs in general, I often end up hovering over a single unit or group, carefully guiding them to maximise their effectiveness... then get wiped out by the large army my opponent built up while I was carefully degrading his defences...
Anyway, my point is that to a certain extent people already play RTSs as though they were FPS with a really weird interface - especially in small group no-construction type missions.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Perhaps Operation Flashpoint has some pointers for what you''re looking for. Obviously it''s closer to the FPS genre, but once you''re in control of a squad you can zoom out and issue orders - anything from moving them about and making them take cover to entering vehicles and so on. Taking that format in mind, it wouldn''t be too great a leap to put building construction and other features more associated with RTS games in there

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Dude, you haven''t played Natural Selection (www.natural-selection.org) yet?

I''m still amazed that there aren''t any clones
out there yet...

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