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Vanz

Half Life 2 Beta leaked now...

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"When hackers broke into the computing system of Valve Software, they stole more than just the source code to Half-Life 2. They also stole enough game maps and other components to put together a playable build of the game. Today, five days after the first leak, they have released that build. Message boards and chat rooms were buzzing Tuesday morning with word of the leaked game. Some fan-based and hacker sites were even displaying in-game images. It is unclear whether the leaked version features the entire game or a limited number of levels. Also unclear is how current the assets used to create the game are." Guess this was inevitable. I really don''t see why the authorities can''t track this crap down, even if it is in a different country (Russia I heard), they still would have laws against theft... Pretty amazing since the Doom3 alpha leak that this could happen again on such a high profile game, these hackers could be making so much moola writing firwall/prtoection software. Really makes me think twice about my bank account that I can access on-line (don''t have much money and can only view statements but still). Makes you wonder how safe other on-line bank accounts are, or even e-trade accounts... rhuala

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I don''t think game companies being hacked is a high of a crime as hacking into a bank. I mean that in the sense that concerns the authorities. Sure hacking is bad but the on the scale of crimes, bank hacking will attract much more attention as it involves everyone and not just a company.

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dont know about other countries but as far as i know you wouldnt get far with sueing them for "theft". its illegal to get into a system and modify data (so installing the keylogger etc. would be one reason to sue), its illegal to break into systems that are specially secured (no, passwords dont count). seeing that valves system definitely wasnt specially secured breaking in and copying whatever you want wouldnt even be a crime in itself. so if anything it would be a copyright problem.

guess valve is lucky not to be in germany ,-).. else a judge might just say "if you dont take the necessary measure to secure your work its completely YOUR problem"

positive so far: the "beta" doesnt seem to be jumping right at you everywhere like the source did.

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The problem with prosecuting the offenders is that there are no formal laws governing cyberspace. Even the very nature of what is considered a crime is subjective. The international aspects of it also make it difficult to prosecute the offenders. Afterall was the crime commited in US or russia, sure the victim was in the US but the crimnals where in russia. Which countries laws apply, do either or both apply?

These are all the kinds of questions that law makers are trying to come to disciussions on and it is very difficult process. For instance in most countries copying and modifying data on another computer is not even a crime.

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There''s also a political aspect to it. If it really was a Russian hacker, Valve will have absolutely zero chance to engage legal actions against him. Considering the current American - Russian relationship, Russia''s reaction will probably be something like "He hacked one of your companies ? Hehe, well, tough luck. Try to protect yourself better next time". As Trienco mentioned, in most non-US countries, this would not even qualify as theft, as the servers were not specifically protected.

The only real chance for legal actions are if the hacker is/was in the US, when comitting the IP theft.

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what if these russians use this source and levels, physics to make their own game? or try to sell their own game? isnt there some sort of international law against that since Valve owns the rights to the game obviously and/or other US companies involved.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
It''s not only other US companies. Some of the physics code was apparently licensed to VALVe by an Irish company. But no, I think there would be no law against that. For one thing, noone in their right mind would use the exact same graphics and levels. Secondly, as far as the code itself goes, I am not sure how that works. I mean, sure, if you release the code for your game, someone could tell, but what if you don''t? I don''t suppose one can detect copyright infringements through a binary file?

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quote:


The problem with prosecuting the offenders is that there are no formal laws governing cyberspace. Even the very nature of what is considered a crime is subjective. The international aspects of it also make it difficult to prosecute the offenders. Afterall was the crime commited in US or russia, sure the victim was in the US but the crimnals where in russia. Which countries laws apply, do either or both apply?






I imagine it would be the same as other internet related crimes. For example if you live in a country where alcohol is illegal, and you attempt to order some alcohol online from a company where alcohol is not illegal, then its still your ass and you can be punished (if caught, of course...).

So I think any laws that Russia has for this scenario would be applied.
IF they are actually from russia, that is.
and IF there are any laws for this type of scenario.
and IF the folks are caught

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
It''s not only other US companies. Some of the physics code was apparently licensed to VALVe by an Irish company. But no, I think there would be no law against that. For one thing, noone in their right mind would use the exact same graphics and levels. Secondly, as far as the code itself goes, I am not sure how that works. I mean, sure, if you release the code for your game, someone could tell, but what if you don''t? I don''t suppose one can detect copyright infringements through a binary file?


The HL2 source contains the Havok .lib and source files which could be easily used by other people to use their physics engine for other games without paying for the licence. Something I''m sure Havok aren''t too happy about.

Some engines are quite easy to recognise by the look of the game dispite the graphics. Although if only sections of the code were used it''d make it alot harder to dicover.

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quote:
Original post by AndreTheGiant
quote:


The problem with prosecuting the offenders is that there are no formal laws governing cyberspace. Even the very nature of what is considered a crime is subjective. The international aspects of it also make it difficult to prosecute the offenders. Afterall was the crime commited in US or russia, sure the victim was in the US but the crimnals where in russia. Which countries laws apply, do either or both apply?






I imagine it would be the same as other internet related crimes. For example if you live in a country where alcohol is illegal, and you attempt to order some alcohol online from a company where alcohol is not illegal, then its still your ass and you can be punished (if caught, of course...).

So I think any laws that Russia has for this scenario would be applied.
IF they are actually from russia, that is.
and IF there are any laws for this type of scenario.
and IF the folks are caught


not if it would happen in holland. our government extradites some guy to the us because he sold drugs to a yank, here in holland.

but the laws about hacking suck. I find the sentence should just be the same as for theft, and since they stole something worth say 100.000 dollar (or how much do companies ask for a license to their engine?), they should be punished like they stole something that valuable

has there been a response from havok? what do they think about it (they don't like it, duh, but anything else?), and what are they gonna do?


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[edited by - Quasar3D on October 8, 2003 4:00:41 PM]

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Everyone who wants to do a favour to Valve should make up a 700MB file full of crap and spread it via emule and such programs .

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quote:
Original post by AndreTheGiant
quote:


The problem with prosecuting the offenders is that there are no formal laws governing cyberspace. Even the very nature of what is considered a crime is subjective. The international aspects of it also make it difficult to prosecute the offenders. Afterall was the crime commited in US or russia, sure the victim was in the US but the crimnals where in russia. Which countries laws apply, do either or both apply?






I imagine it would be the same as other internet related crimes. For example if you live in a country where alcohol is illegal, and you attempt to order some alcohol online from a company where alcohol is not illegal, then its still your ass and you can be punished (if caught, of course...).

So I think any laws that Russia has for this scenario would be applied.
IF they are actually from russia, that is.
and IF there are any laws for this type of scenario.
and IF the folks are caught


you wouldn't be charged for the purchase of the alcohal since that was done in a country where its legal. Instead if you where caught in your own country, it would fallen on the laws for reciving contrand goods and possibly possession.

But also the alchol is physical thing with a set montary value. Where as data is an abastract concept and not a physical entity.

Also part of the problem is how do you assign a montary value to data?

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Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document



[edited by - TechnoGoth on October 8, 2003 4:32:36 PM]

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Well, if you consider that they stole the source/maps/game, then I would say that the value would be the cost to create all of those things. That would include the cost of employing people on the project, the cost for any special hardware or software used, and the cost of anything that was essential in the developement of the game.

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quote:
Original post by TechnoGoth
quote:
Original post by AndreTheGiant
quote:


The problem with prosecuting the offenders is that there are no formal laws governing cyberspace. Even the very nature of what is considered a crime is subjective. The international aspects of it also make it difficult to prosecute the offenders. Afterall was the crime commited in US or russia, sure the victim was in the US but the crimnals where in russia. Which countries laws apply, do either or both apply?






I imagine it would be the same as other internet related crimes. For example if you live in a country where alcohol is illegal, and you attempt to order some alcohol online from a company where alcohol is not illegal, then its still your ass and you can be punished (if caught, of course...).

So I think any laws that Russia has for this scenario would be applied.
IF they are actually from russia, that is.
and IF there are any laws for this type of scenario.
and IF the folks are caught


you wouldn''t be charged for the purchase of the alcohal since that was done in a country where its legal. Instead if you where caught in your own country, it would fallen on the laws for reciving contrand goods and possibly possession.

But also the alchol is physical thing with a set montary value. Where as data is an abastract concept and not a physical entity.

Also part of the problem is how do you assign a montary value to data?

-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document



[edited by - TechnoGoth on October 8, 2003 4:32:36 PM]



The same way you assign a monatary value to anything else... how much did it cost to produce? This should be the value that the theft is responsible for, and until then, they will continue to do what they do because they know they will get away with it. Until someone starts being responsible for their actions, they see no reason to stop doing it. If they knew there was a 2 million dollar fine if they got caught, they most likely wouldn''t have done it (or at least it''d stop all the wanna-be hackers).

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but until a countries law reconginze data as an entity convered under the law then internet crime can't be prosecuted. Afterall people even have diffrent ideas about what is data. For instance if someone stole a book you could charge them with theft but what if they stole the words from the book? Or even just the words on page 6? Is the value of the book the same as the words? Is the value of one page equal to that portion of the book or is the value based on the contents of the page. Or is the value of the words associated with the cost of writting the book and not the value of the indvidual book.

For instance if you steal a book that cost $10 thats a petty theft. So is the value of source code equal to value of one copy of Halflife 2, or is it equal to the millions they spent in development and projected loss of revenue. And how do you prove that in court?
-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document



[edited by - TechnoGoth on October 8, 2003 7:16:54 PM]

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quote:
Original post by TechnoGoth
but until a countries law reconginze data as an entity convered under the law then internet crime can''t be prosecuted. Afterall people even have diffrent ideas about what is data. For instance if someone stole a book you could charge them with theft but what if they stole the words from the book? Or even just the words on page 6? Is the value of the book the same as the words? Is the value of one page equal to that portion of the book or is the value based on the contents of the page. Or is the value of the words associated with the cost of writting the book and not the value of the indvidual book.


Someone should look into copyright laws...

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quote:
Original post by Zefrieg
Well, if you consider that they stole the source/maps/game, then I would say that the value would be the cost to create all of those things. That would include the cost of employing people on the project, the cost for any special hardware or software used, and the cost of anything that was essential in the developement of the game.
I cannot see the logic in that. If you steal a $50,000 car from a car manufacturer, I would assume its value would not be estimated on the tens of millions it took to develop the particular model, but rather the retail price.

The crime isn''t about stealing a copy, but the damage it will cause. That is tricky too. If someone was to release a superior game to HL2, and noone would want to buy the latter because of that, it would cause Valve even more damage, but I assume that wouldn''t be criminal?

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But CWizard, the problem is a little more complex than that. It was if you stole the $50,000 car, but also the plans used to make it. It''s a little harder to assign a money value to that.

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quote:
Original post by Ready4Dis
The same way you assign a monatary value to anything else... how much did it cost to produce? This should be the value that the theft is responsible for, and until then, they will continue to do what they do because they know they will get away with it. Until someone starts being responsible for their actions, they see no reason to stop doing it. If they knew there was a 2 million dollar fine if they got caught, they most likely wouldn''t have done it (or at least it''d stop all the wanna-be hackers).

That isn''t right, if I download X-Japan''s new CD, which cost $3 million or so to make in the studio. Is my iso worth $3 million? You can''t use how much it cost to produce as a way to estimate the value of the product.

The price of the code is worth the price to license the code. There are examples and industry standards of how much an engine costs. That should be how much the theif is held to for the code itself.

Now the breaking and entring into the server, that should get him some prision time.

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I can''t see any of you people''s points.

The actual point is that The Source engine is nothing that Gabe/Valve told us it would be.

The fact that the E3 demo was scripted, is enough to convince me that Valve was employing pretty shady ethics. "But blah blah blah valve has more content in the safe blah blah blah" the game was supposed to be released this month, even before condition zero. Do you seriously think that the programmers wouldn''t be actually putting the game together as a whole? What I see right now is a lot of marketing bs. We all know how it turns out to be.

Only impressive thing I''ve seen so far have been the physics and they have been out of house production. Other than that, I have to say that valve got what they deserved no matter how wrong it is legally. Don''t decieve people like that.

Thus "We have to change the concept of the game" translates into we have no game at all. If the game was ready, they would probably publish it as it is, since what leaked wasn''t really THAT impressive.

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quote:
Original post by Captian Goatse
I can''t see any of you people''s points.


Open your eyes.

quote:

The actual point is that The Source engine is nothing that Gabe/Valve told us it would be.


You''ve not seen the Source engine. You''ve seen a leaked, internal build of it. Decidedly not the same thing.

quote:

The fact that the E3 demo was scripted, is enough to convince me that Valve was employing pretty shady ethics.

You think they''d rather that the guy playing the game get killed because he wouldn''t be sure what the AI would do? Of *course* they use scripted sequences for something like an E3 demo - they want total control. You really think they''d have said that if, when the SDK came out, people would be able to see what the AI really was?

quote:

"But blah blah blah valve has more content in the safe blah blah blah" the game was supposed to be released this month, even before condition zero. Do you seriously think that the programmers wouldn''t be actually putting the game together as a whole? What I see right now is a lot of marketing bs. We all know how it turns out to be.

Uhm... I''m just not quite sure what you''re saying here. That the game was overhyped? Pretty good going, given that we didn''t hear about it until 3/4 of the way through the development cycle or so.

quote:

Only impressive thing I''ve seen so far have been the physics and they have been out of house production.

You weren''t impressed by the quality of the graphics, the quality of the content (models and stuff), the muscular animation system, or the sheer mood of the videos?

quote:
Other than that, I have to say that valve got what they deserved no matter how wrong it is legally. Don''t decieve people like that.

...

quote:

Thus "We have to change the concept of the game" translates into we have no game at all. If the game was ready, they would probably publish it as it is, since what leaked wasn''t really THAT impressive.


Firstly, you really believe the hacker when he says that it''s a fully current build? A person who has been proven to have no ethics or morals... it wouldn''t exactly be difficult, given the source code, to make what he released look current. Valve have at no point said that he took the current stuff. Granted, it''s unlikely that he''d get in that far and get the wrong source tree, but still...

Secondly, the phrase ''playable beta'' has been thrown around a lot. ''Playable'' implies a game to me...

Thirdly, are you openly admitting you''ve played with the leaked stuff?

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Captian goatse> I almost do agree with you, even if I can't be sure of anything, but something made me think a lot about all that...

when did they announce they wouldn't release it on september 30th ?

I don't know how it works, but when you ship a game, you have to go through a number of steps before it reaches the stores, write CDs, pack them, ship them, etc...
and that takes time doesn't it? (I have no idea, but I doubt it can be done in a few days...) so either they already had the game ready to ship and the game copies were already made, (I really doubt), and lost a huge amount of money because every copy had to be thrown away, or they knew there would be a leak, and used that to give them more time (I quite doubt about that one too), or they planned to push back their deadline ayway, gave a fake shipping date, and used the leak to be able to push the date back even more...

and that's that last hypothesis that makes me think a bit like Captain goatse... either way, they "fooled" the HL community, who (from what I've seen), was really looking forward to the release of HL2, and now has to wait 6 more months! if that's only to fix security problems, well I don't think their network design is really impressive... I'm sorry for valve, but why did they lie?

if the leaked demo really IS the current HL2 state, well... I don't know what went on during those 5 years, but it's bad for them...
(I read on forums you had to find console commands to do anything, display guns, activade DX9 effects... apply bullet decals, that is wasn't even a beta)...

as they couldn't have released the game as it is now, if there hadn't been a leak, I wonder what kind of excuse they would have used to push the deadline back enough so they could finish the game...

sorry, my english is awful today... I just can't express myself... never mind..

[edited by - sBibi on October 9, 2003 10:50:46 AM]

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