OK, two points I think.
First you are talking about a computer game here, not a paper game. What this means is that it doesnt matter how many attributes you are ACTUALLY using, what matter is how you show it to the players. Maybe you dont have to show the subtle attributes to the player but only the main one (Strength, Intelligence and Will). In any case it doesnt matter how many attributes there are since it''s the computer that''s gonna have to deal with all the calculation... unlike a pen n paper RPG.

Second point is that I have seen various stats system in my RPG experience. I am a fervent anti DnD man, but even them got something right.

MAybe I can show you one or two systems of attributes I know of ?
The World Of Darkness system has 9 attributes, completed by a host of specific abilities. To resolve an action, you combine a main attribute with an ability and roll.
There are 3 categories of attributes (and abilities) : Physical, Mental and Social.
My own understanding is that there is generally one active skill, one passive skill, and one ... miscellaneous.
For instance :
Physical > Strength (active), Stamina (passive), Dexterity (?)
Social > Charisma , Appearance, Manipulation (yes, it''s a bit fuzzy there, I agree)
Mental > Perception, Wits, Intelligence.
Abilities are separated in Talents, Skills, and Knowledges (it''s not a clear cut Physical/Social/Mental separation here).

Another system I remember is called Simulacres.
In it you have 4 main main attributes (called Composants) and 4 secondary atttributes called Means (as in, a mean to an end).
Body, Soul, Mind and Instincts are the 4 main composant of a character, and can be expressed through the 4 means : Action, Perception, Resistance and Desire (possibly Willpower, I am translating from French here).
Again you combine base elements to create even more attrbutes, 16 here. And you can refine those with a Realm, an indication that your character has a particualr liking for a sphere of influence. Realms are the Mineral, Vegetal, Animal, Human, and Mechanical.
And then you can still add to that specific abilities...
So if you want to tackle a particularly difficult MAths problem, you could roll Mind + Action + Mechanical (because Maths are conceptual tools) + Maths
Or you could try and resist the temptation to fall asleep by rolling Body + Resist + Human
To hit someone with a sword ? Body + Action + Mechanical + Sword
Gee, there is even a set of attributes called Energies that can be used to add a specific "shade" to your action. There was Might, Precision and Speed. The trick is that the Energies where in limited supply, so you could use your Might for a particularly powerful strike at your opponent. Or you could do a Mind + Action + Human + Etiquette + Precision if you were trying to land a particularly vicious blow in an political debate...

Gee... and there are more systems out there, Chaosium system (used in Chtulhu, Stormbringer and Hawkmoon), GURPS system (used in Fallout), Rolemaster, Glorantha...
All of them ahve much more than the 6 or so attributes that you will find in most computer Roleplaying games.
WHY ? I still have no idea, when you think about all the data a computer CAN handle, it seems surprising that we dont give it a chance.

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

Alright, I''ll consent that this is a computer RPG, and we could have literally hundreds of stats and that''d be no problem because the processor would run the numbers for you.

The problem is the player''s involvement in the Stat boosting process, and the apparent effect his work has. Theres no mention in this thread anywhere how the player will go about setting these stats, or improving them for that matter. Because we have 18 stats listed, I''m assuiming that full responsibility for these stats is left on the player, I.E. if they spend all day fighting, they''ll get some strength and stuff, but lose intelligence. If you tie the stats together, then we get some wave effect, that STR+2, AGI+1, INT-2, CHARISMA-1. With 18 stats, this type of thing would be happening a lot, AND would be going on with out the player''s direct knowledge of it. (Even in RPGs with 3 stats, a change here and there in stats occur with out reference point, I.E. you get 2 STR points, sure, but what does it do? Double damage, or just add 2 points of damage, or 1 point of damage and randomly a second point?).

Taking in the supposition that you''d avoid Stat decay, that my last argument is bunk. To that I''d say Okay, 18, sure... Break them down into sub categories and organize them on the UI so the player knows what they''re used for.

As a suggestion, I''d suggest that you could expanding the list if you specialized it. Thats what I was talking about with Character Skills, lockpicking. A better example is your Immunity stat. Rather then just blanket immunity, how about Immunity-To-Poison, Immunity-To-Plauge, Immunity-To-Light... That last one is if you had a Vampire classification. Once you specialized the stat, then the player knows exactly what the stat does, and can manage it. "Oh, I''m underground, I can remove my +3 Sunglasses."

well the entire concept goes pretty deep, so there are alot of ways that a player can increase in any specific attribute, at least in theory. but generally, physical attributes are influenced by physical activity, mental attributes are influenced by problem solving efficiency, social and spiritual attributes are influened by a general character assessment which interprets a character''s actions and behavior.

i''m still working on the equations, although i have an ideal leveling system in mind. like in most other rpgs actions give experience in a category that i''m referring to as points. for any given attribute there are 1000 points in a level, and a maximum of around 1000 levels, although it is important to me that a player be able to "beat" the game anywhere from about level 80 on up. the higher levels require more effort and offer more reward but the game would not suffer if they are not attained.

quote:Original post by Inmate2993
I'm assuiming that full responsibility for these stats is left on the player, I.E. if they spend all day fighting, they'll get some strength and stuff, but lose intelligence.

well, not necessarily. if they spend all day mindlessly hacking away then yes, intelligence may be lost. in most rpgs this is unavoidable, but i'm designing this game so that players can choose which exact actions -- or, in the case of fighting, moves -- they can perform. a player that dispatches of enemies more efficiently will most likely gain intelligence.

one thing i want to mention is that loss of ability is part of the game design. in a normal rpg you have health that can be lost and regained, with a maximum value that only rises, and a current value that varies. my design calls for this to apply to most if not all character attributes. one goal of mine is to create an injury system as an extension of the combat system; if a player is seriously injured, then his strength would be diminished. likewise, if a character takes a blow to the head with a club, there will most likely be some type of cognative failure.

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another question...kinda related..

what about food? would it be a burden to have some type of nutrition requirement? i don't want players micromanaging their character's lives, but i want this game to be fairly detailed. if a player goes a long time without food his performance would suffer, energy and strength levels will go down slowly. but if rations could be purchased in a market, stored in inventory, and consumed automatically, this could be avoided. there could even be a diet setting which determines how much food a player consumes and how quickly he consumes it. a balance of consumption and action influences the player's muscle to fat weight ratio, which is a factor in determining strength. consumption + action adds to muscle, consumption + inaction adds to fat.

thoughts?





[edited by - syn_apse on October 12, 2003 5:09:04 AM]