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Warsong

Think about this, if you can. ;)

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Since some lost the point to the last post even though they did say some good ideas about pong and it seems to have been a good exercise, so I decide to explain it more. Here is an analogy: Input - grade errors = output I tell you 10 thing - you forget 3 things = implement 7 things) 1For your mind: Reading an informative book = learning (input); Shows how much you learned = test by filling in the blanks (rules to see your grade); Implementing by solving things = working (output) 2 for your muscles Weight lifting = building muscle (input); Lifting to your max = test (having rules to see your strength level); Implementing by moving thing = working (output) 3 aiming a gun Trying to aim and hold the gun = learning (input); Aiming at marks = test (having rules to see your grade level); Implementing by being in the army = working (output) 4 so for designing where are we???????????????????? Learning basic aspects to balance things out = learning (input); ??Filling in blanks of existing examples= test (having rules to see your grade level); Implementing by designing games = working (output) (Yes I know I could have structured that well but you get the examples?) ---------------------------------------------` So if some say they can design and are creative then why not take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward by doing what the first and second examples to be for design? Did anyone think about this or is this the hardest design of them all? Just trying to make people think! Also why I restricted thing in the other post is because to make people squeeze every thing that can be done about one thing. We are not creative by how many things we have but of how little things we have. For example who is a better fighter? One that fights with their hands is skilled enough to take on another with a sword. Just because they win in a tie doesn’t mean it is a tie. One that can make $1,000 with $1 or one that can make $1,000 with $10,000. If you can squeeze every design idea to one simple thing then you can make better ideas when you have more. Because when that person that can make $1 to $1,000 then when they get the $1,000 how much more can they make you know what I mean? ================` Companies hire someone based on their level and no one hires as much new designers unlike new programmers that can show how good they are in their tests. Companies and others can’t see the person grade of design no matter what game you show since the testing ground for it now is actual work, which you can’t get work without experience of work. So can anyone make a test that is headed to the right direction? Don’t you think to fill in blanks of what games are missing or lacking is a good way? Math tests were like that. YES? NO? This is a premier game design site, so don’t some think that we can come up with something? Or is this too hard and you want to let this evaluation go? Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo

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wow. you really are pretentious. how many of these "if you really think you're a good designer" threads are you gonna use to make whatever point it is you're trying to make?

[edited by - syn_apse on October 14, 2003 8:02:50 PM]

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I''m hoping that the attitude in your postings is simply a writing problem, and not intentional.

In any case, to avoid further flames I would strongly suggest you word your thread titles, and messages more carefully. (Also run them through a spell check... though I am not one who should suggest others use spell check )

Let the flames begin!
- Jacob

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you know?

how many AAA titles have you shipped, warsong, that you keep challenging everyone else''s right to call themselves a game designer?

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I made my point. Didn’t you read the questions? This is why I explained it differently thinking that maybe I didn’t say it well but it’s obvious that you didn’t even think it though. If you can answer the question then you should not be replying at all since your didn’t give an effort.

I see someone else tried to spin off my post but they over complicated it and made it too broad which takes up more time.

As for my wring what did I say? I don’t think I have an attitude it’s just the way I talk, which I guess it’s harsh. I said a lot which tends be more annoying to find errors as well.

If people can’t answer or solve then question then they should not reply at all.


Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo

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quote:
Original post by syn_apse
don't you get it fool? i don't care about your bullshit question.


Very creative person you are. Is calling names and foul language part of your creativity? Well like I said if you can't answer then don’t reply. You failed in many ways and your actions and words show it well. You complained about my last post and many thought it was interesting and replied. So don’t reply since we know you can’t conduct yourself proper or handle the questions.

Good luck

[edited by - warsong on October 14, 2003 9:02:23 PM]

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quote:
Original post by Warsong
Very creative person you are is calling names part of your creativity? Well like I said if you can answer then don’t reply. You failed in many ways and your actins and words show it well. You complained about my last post and many thought it was interesting and replied. So don’t reply since we know you can’t conduct yourself proper or handle the questions.


we? who the hell is we? who else has given you permission to speak for them? well "we" over here see through your facade, pal. your questions are intellectually dishonest. you are asking about a paradigm that you have defined, and not very well. you have made a decision that you consider not just personal but universal, and you look down your nose at anyone who doesn't care about your rules...

quote:
so don’t some think that we can come up with something? Or is this too hard and you want to let this evaluation go?


i'm being evaluated? by who? instead of asking objectively about a test of good design you are asking people to prove themselves to you, so that they can live up to an expectation that has no impact on their real lives.

narcisstic prick. speaks for everyone. stands in judgement.

no sir, good luck to you.


[edited by - syn_apse on October 14, 2003 9:09:25 PM]

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quote:
Original post by Warsong
Since some lost the point to the last post even though they did say some good ideas about pong and it seems to have been a good exercise, so I decide to explain it more.

Here is an analogy: Input - grade errors = output
I tell you 10 thing - you forget 3 things = implement 7 things)

1For your mind:
Reading an informative book = learning (input);
Shows how much you learned = test by filling in the blanks (rules to see your grade);
Implementing by solving things = working (output)

2 for your muscles
Weight lifting = building muscle (input);
Lifting to your max = test (having rules to see your strength level);
Implementing by moving thing = working (output)

3 aiming a gun
Trying to aim and hold the gun = learning (input);
Aiming at marks = test (having rules to see your grade level);
Implementing by being in the army = working (output)

4 so for designing where are we????????????????????
Learning basic aspects to balance things out = learning (input);
??Filling in blanks of existing examples= test (having rules to see your grade level);
Implementing by designing games = working (output)

(Yes I know I could have structured that well but you get the examples?)
---------------------------------------------`
So if some say they can design and are creative then why not take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward by doing what the first and second examples to be for design? Did anyone think about this or is this the hardest design of them all? Just trying to make people think!

Also why I restricted thing in the other post is because to make people squeeze every thing that can be done about one thing. We are not creative by how many things we have but of how little things we have.

For example who is a better fighter?
One that fights with their hands is skilled enough to take on another with a sword.
Just because they win in a tie doesn’t mean it is a tie.

One that can make $1,000 with $1 or one that can make $1,000 with $10,000. If you can squeeze every design idea to one simple thing then you can make better ideas when you have more. Because when that person that can make $1 to $1,000 then when they get the $1,000 how much more can they make you know what I mean?
================`
Companies hire someone based on their level and no one hires as much new designers unlike new programmers that can show how good they are in their tests. Companies and others can’t see the person grade of design no matter what game you show since the testing ground for it now is actual work, which you can’t get work without experience of work.

So can anyone make a test that is headed to the right direction?
Don’t you think to fill in blanks of what games are missing or lacking is a good way? Math tests were like that. YES? NO?

This is a premier game design site, so don’t some think that we can come up with something? Or is this too hard and you want to let this evaluation go?

Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo


Okay Warsong, so you are looking for a test of game design ability. Correct? The first thing that would come to my mind is what other people have done about this same problem. The only place I can look to are game development schools that offer game design courses. Now all we need is their input. We need to ask them what type of test questions are there for these classes.

Now that''s settled. My question to you is what''s the point? Instead of focusing on how well we do, why don''t we focus on how to improve as a game designer.

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blahmaster
More like an indicator just like an IQ test. Game dev schools don’t do that since we would be seeing their results here. I seen the courses and they are laughable.
The point is if you know where you are you know how much more you can do.

Did you get my point about the 2 fighter? Meaning people should try to make the best of what they have to squeeze every ounce of what can be done to stretch their creative abilities. It’s easy to squeeze a glass of orange juice with 4 oranges but the point it to try to squeeze as much as they can out of 1, you know? I even ask people to try and think of something I didn’t say I will do it all and I am better, I just gave an example to try and spark some motivation.

-------------------- syn_apse
u say "we? who the hell is we?"

meaning we the people of GD viewing your rants.

u say "i'm being evaluated? by who? "

You are kidding right? Meaning that you evaluating the suggestion that was presented, which you don't care as u said. I dont think I need to mention again what you said since you just proved me right.
take a chill pill.

u say "you are asking people to prove themselves to you,…. narcisstic prick. speaks for everyone. stands in judgement."

Why do you keep asking when you don’t care and read everything wrong to your negative ways? Get real kid and if you read it you would know better than to assume and misconstrue things. You should take your own advice you know.

u say "no sir, good luck to you."
Thank you

[edited by - warsong on October 15, 2003 1:24:49 AM]

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meh...

a person with a small vocuabulary is not more creative than someone with a large one simply because he has to do more with less. he should learn those words anyways and then implement them as needed. otherwise he''s ignorant.

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quote:
Original post by syn_apse
meh...
a person with a small vocuabulary is not more creative than someone with a large one simply because he has to do more with less. he should learn those words anyways and then implement them as needed. otherwise he''s ignorant.


Also the honeymooners that had 2 acts in 1 room for 30 min has more quality entertainment for the entire family, than a show like law and order with violent with 100 people that is good for a few.

words of wisdom
Profanity is for those who lack intelligence and imagination to otherwise express them selves.

Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo

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though i see the point of your post.
i believe the argument you propose is flawed.

less does not mean more.
it would be like saying that a game programmer who makes a fun game using NES technology is a better game programmer than one who does the same thing using OpenGL targeted to a P4 class computer, which is not true.

though i admit that some believe that you need the latest and greatest in technology to make a fun game or even one worth making. this obviously is not true. if anything game design IMHO concerns one important thing, GAMEPLAY. once that is established and well executed then everything else falls into place (well it should anyway ).

i think a better way to exercise the game design muscles, again IMHO, is to improve on games, whether good or bad, and EXPLAIN why you as the designer think that it is necessary addition. restricting resources to flex your creative muscles seems to be a contradiction in terms as well as philosophy.

i think you need to formulate or better yet clearly and concisely explain your position when designing your own games. what tools, rules, standards do you follow? do you purposely target lower end machines to emphasize gameplay and content than graphics? or do you just design to envelope the gamer into a world that unfolds as he plays therefore keeping him involved and motivating him to master the rules and skills your game presents to him?

but as far as tests, this discipline of game development is too subjective to do such a thing. maybe you can have contests, but not tests.

hopefully i am as clear and concise as needed.

[edited by - Alpha_ProgDes on October 15, 2003 1:21:30 AM]

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quote:
Original post by Warsong
blahmaster
More like an indicator just like an IQ test. Game dev schools don’t do that since we would be seeing their results here. I seen the courses and they are laughable.
The point is if you know where you are you know how much more you can do.

Did you get my point about the 2 fighter? Meaning people should try to make the best of what they have to squeeze every ounce of what can be done to stretch their creative abilities. It’s easy to squeeze a glass of orange juice with 4 oranges but the point it to try to squeeze as much as they can out of 1, you know? I even ask people to try and think of something I didn’t say I will do it all and I am better, I just gave an example to try and spark some motivation.

-------------------- syn_apse
u say "we? who the hell is we?"

meaning we the people of GD viewing your rants.

u say "i'm being evaluated? by who? "

You are kidding right? Meaning the you evaluating the suggestion thatw as ptresented that your don't care. I dont think i need to mention again what you said since you just proved me right.
take a chill pill.

u say "you are asking people to prove themselves to you,…. narcisstic prick. speaks for everyone. stands in judgement."

Why do you keep asking when you don’t care and read everything wrong to your negative ways? Get real kid and if you read it you would know better than to assume and misconstrue things. You should take your own advice you know.

u say "no sir, good luck to you."

Thank you

[edited by - warsong on October 15, 2003 1:01:45 AM]


From what I can infer you haven't gone to a game school so I don't think you should judge them harshly. Furthermore, even if they are not quality schools, they still must have done some work to at least give a starting ground for this subject.

Well, if you really want to pursue this topic you must ask yourself these questions. What is the criteria? For example, you are giving a writing assignment. Your grade is based on the lack of grammatical errors, conciseness, style, etc. What's the criteria for a game design exercise? I don't know. That's why it's better we get some of this information from someone who has taken a game design class.

Personally, the whole idea of a game design test seems pretty impractical. Have you read Chris Crawford on game design? He talks about how he would finish a game, and then leave a couple of months to just polish it. Also, I remember reading something about Miyamoto saying something about one of his newer games and how he didn't find it any fun once it was functionally ready. It took him some months before it actually became fun. The point is let's say you do have this exercise where you have to make a game better. Someone comes up with some unique ideas to improve the game. If this person never makes this game then we will never really know if it ever was fun. Also, I think in Game Architecture and Design they say that a game design idea could seem like the most fun idea ever, but once made it sometimes isn't.


[edited by - BlahMaster on October 15, 2003 1:58:17 AM]

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quote:
Original post by Warsong Profanity is for those who lack intelligence and imagination to otherwise express them selves.


shut the fuck up

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quote:
Original post by Warsong
Also the honeymooners that had 2 acts in 1 room for 30 min has more quality entertainment for the entire family, than a show like law and order with violent with 100 people that is good for a few.


objectivity, meet subjectivity. die objectivity, die!

objectivity is dead, if it were ever alive to begin with. what is entertaining to me is not necessarily entertaining to you, and vice versa. and that is the problem with your game design test. such a test would limit the designer''s creativity, not expand it. you are trying to simplify things by adding rules.

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quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
though i see the point of your post.
i believe .....
[edited by - Alpha_ProgDes on October 15, 2003 1:21:30 AM]


Alpha_ProgDes
Let me correct your analogy in what I imply
it would be like saying that a game programmer who makes a fun game using NES technology is a game “DESIGNER” (not programmer) than one who does the same thing using OpenGL targeted to a P4 class computer “with high end graphics which gets the same game play results”
Pound for pound Tetris made more with less resources than the average million $ budget games.

Restricting ideas in a practice is to try to make the person squeeze ideas more. If we had abundant resources we cant test out self and try to make our self better. Physic competitions do this a lot to restrict the physic student to rules to see how creative their minds can be. Just like the show MacGyver how the MacGyver shows how making a bright light with chemicals found in the bathroom. The point is you would want a guy like MacGyver around to find the most creative solution. If he can do something with nothing imagine what he can do with something, which that goes for designers as well.

I would not be a great game designer if I bought the right if they invented the Star Treck haladeck that make 3D realistic world. I would not be better artist than Divinchi if I copy and edit a painting I found on the net to have a computer generate landscape for me and I know nothing about art. I can’t be a great marksman if I hire someone else to do the work for me. That’s how I see it.

Your reason in how to be better designer is good as well. Which helps people think and some did come with good ideas in the last post about people trying to make a better pong to give them a work as well.

For instance Nintendo’s Miyamoto they say works with colors boxes and plays with them to see how the game play would go. To make the red block jump on the green block and see if that would work and then later on fill in the gaps by adding story, art, sound, level layout, and more rules. If he did it backwards and though of sounds first then art and story and last game play then he would be like most games out which don’t go well. This is the point I am trying to make that people should make a great game out of something with close to nothing and if you can add more thing and try to get more info from that and then more and more and so on until u squeeze out every aspect of idea and decide what you want and what you don’t. Some people are afraid of a challenge and would rather attack than think it out. But you said it well and I congratulate you and I hope you got a bit of info.

I think you can do a test but no one actually tried. It’s like how much creativity does one have in a certain type of game. If I came with 20 ideas to remake pong and you like it that’s at least is a number I gave you and it’s an indicator. If I can a great game with 1 button then I would have an easier time creating a game with 2 times the abilities. The restriction isn’t to hinder your design ability but to try to make you think of what else. If you were stuck on a small sandy island and you only had matches string and a few logs what can you do? I am not restricting you I am trying to make you think more. You wouldn’t have to think if you have a boat already and a spot light to get help and get off the island. If we place your self in a comfortable place then we would not try to do the best since we gotten soft in some say sometimes.

Yeas I said a lot and I didn’t want to say so much at first because some have a short attention span. If you can simplify it then by all means which I have been asking people to come with something better than me because I know I am not expressing it well and that I know others can.


Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo

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If we seriously want to talk about testing game design ability, then we have to discuss exactly what abilities are needed in a "perfect game designer," quantify them, and rank them in order of importance, and then come up with methods of testing them.

Here are some starting points:

-Creativity

This is a "duh" answer - too bad it''s so hard to measure.

-Mathematical intuition, probably with a focus in logic

Games are inherently mathematical because they''re based around patterns we can identify and act upon, the same concept that math is based on - so someone who comes up with a game will need to have a good mathematical intuition - which is different from simple problem-solving ability(plenty of genius mathematicians need help coming up with concepts and problems to solve that they can write papers on) - to determine when the gameplay will turn out favorable to his goals; since games are primarily rule-based systems, logic is -- in a logical sense -- most important in helping our perfect designer''s reasoning. Ability to abstract the real world would help too, but probably not as much as the first.

-A highly diverse skill set, anything could help

While obviously, things like writing, drawing, and programming are helpful to work with the development team, our designer has to know something about our world that other people can relate to. If he knows things most people don''t(history, literature, anthropology...), he can often directly apply his knowledge into a video game''s design.

Before we move on to any sort of testing, we have to agree that this, or something like this, could constitute a "perfect game designer."

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what would that test be good for? creating a test in a field as amiguous as game design will only lead to wrong impressions - if you want to estimate someones ability as a designer then look at his portfolio. the way it is now most game designers have a track record anyways, since designer isn´t a position you just get hired into.
send me three gds/concepts and I´ll tell you who´s good and why.

edit: in response to your "Instead of focusing on how well we do, why don't we focus on how to improve as a game designer."

How about why don´t we focus on making games instead of further dragging the game designers occupation into the area of bullshitting? Learning by doing. Now go and make games.

[edited by - Hase on October 15, 2003 5:00:27 AM]

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quote:
Original post by Warsong
Companies and others can’t see the person grade of design no matter what game you show since the testing ground for it now is actual work, which you can’t get work without experience of work.


There''s always the indie game community, or the modding community etc. Don''t tell me you CAN''T create at least a basic prototype of your game design without being hired by a professional game development company, because it simply isn''t true.

Lack of programming/scripting/mapping/modelling skills is no excuse - if you want to be a game designer I''d strongly recommend learning as many of these skills as you can - particularly since many ''junior designer'' roles will require you to posess at least one of these skills. There are plenty of cheap/free tools out there for all of these things, so lack of money is not an excuse either.

So, a game designer CAN show off his skills. He just has to make a bit of an effort.


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I think it is a good thread... and an interesting nut to crack. Actually being forced to follow someone else's rules when designing is often reality. Sometimes publishers dictate certain criterias.. or CEO's. Not all developers (and designers) are able to pursue their own 'dream game'. Look at some of the successful developers out there - they are forced to do sequels, sequels and sequels. I bet that they'd love to do other games even work in other genres.

So.. a designer that isn't capable of designing to another persons tune is in my eyes the worst kind of designer. The one that never will get along with team members, that won't listen to the producer etc.



::aggression is the result of fear::

[edited by - grimjack on October 15, 2003 9:06:47 AM]

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quote:
Original post by Hase
edit: in response to your "Instead of focusing on how well we do, why don''t we focus on how to improve as a game designer."

How about why don´t we focus on making games instead of further dragging the game designers occupation into the area of bullshitting? Learning by doing. Now go and make games.

[edited by - Hase on October 15, 2003 5:00:27 AM]


Well, when I said why don''t we focus on how to improve as a game designer and then you replied let''s actually make the games you just did what I asked for. By making a game you are becoming a better game designer.

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" I would not be better artist than Divinchi if I copy and edit a painting I found on the net to have a computer generate landscape for me and I know nothing about art."

"It’s like how much creativity does one have in a certain type of game. If I came with 20 ideas to remake pong and you like it that’s at least is a number I gave you and it’s an indicator."

Your aurgument is flawed and contradictory, Coming up with ideas to improve pong is no diffrent then painting the mona lisa''s hair purple.

Coming up with ideas on how to "improve" other peoples work takes a lot less creativity then developing an idea from scratch. A blank sheet of paper is the hardest obstacle to overcome. It has nothing to do with less is more the fact is most of the older games where limited by the technology, Does that make them great games designers?


"If I can a great game with 1 button then I would have an easier time creating a game with 2 times the abilities."

"If you were stuck on a small sandy island and you only had matches string and a few logs what can you do? I am not restricting you I am trying to make you think more. You wouldn’t have to think if you have a boat already and a spot light to get help and get off the island."

This another flawed analogy of yours, the fact that you can make a good game with 1 button does not mean you can create a good 2 button game. In fact someone who has been making 2 buttons games as long as you have been making 1 buttons will be able to make a far better game then yours.

If you want an anology. A raft builder using salvaged materials doesn''t not have the skills or experince nessary to build an aircraft carrier with using the latest hightech equipment.

Less in not more, having less means stretching you capabilites as much as possible. Having more means you can perform to your abilites and truely bring out vision.


-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

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