Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Warsong

Flex your design abilities with no limits BUT…

Recommended Posts

Flex your design abilities with no limits, but you have to make it educational. lol Try to make a fun math game for instance that the game needs it. Come on this one has no restriction so you can post a small idea and let other rate how "Fun" and "Educational" it is. Here is an example of what kind of math at this site. http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/quiz/Quiz.aspx?QuizID=95 Let’s see everyone talks about not wanting restrictions so now you have it, so this should be interesting. Also you don’t have to post the entire idea just some suggestions could be fine as well. Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don''t know what you expect us to do, pull rabbits out of our hats? The only design that would cover that material would be a form of drilling and practicing. I remember trying an early 90s version of Math Blaster; it had a bunch of different scenes where you did arithmetic problems, but really all the scenes were the same, and included some stupid delays for cut scenes and the like that slowed down the point of the game; to get better at it.

Similarly, there were two versions of German grammar tutor software at my school, one for the ancient Apple IIes which got removed last year(my senior year), and one for the Mac and Windows. They had essentially the same function, but guess what? The old software was *better* than the new kind. The newer version didn''t correct your mistakes, and it was more ambiguous in its questions and had a username/lesson interface that we never actually had any use for.

From my current perspective, I realize that the best kind of software in this vein, where the goal is to improve and nothing more, is to get it as simple as possible and then refine it until the process of learning has NO delays other than those of the user.

For the algebra and geometry problems given, I would first immediately eliminate the stupid words and pictures. Nobody in school liked them, and they did not expand our abilities to apply the techniques to the real world one bit.

Then, for each problem, I would give an electronic toolset of algebraic and geometric manipulations, something I would have died for while learning. Going "durr, what do I do next - teacher teacher help me (whine)" is unproductive, but when all the tools you need to solve each problem are right on the screen, such moments are lessened. Mistakes in solving the problem would be immediately pointed out with a program that tried to solve it each time the student made another step - failure to solve would give the student immediate feedback that the solution is not found by what he''s doing.

Then I would order all the problem types by topic.

Then I would offer a mini-lecture in text with an optional visual presentation for each type of problem. Lots of examples, too.

Then I would allow users to create accounts with the system, and let them create a course plan.

After that, it''s all up to the person running it. If a school enforced an hour or so of work with it each day, it''d probably be more effective than regular homework.

That doesn''t sound like much of a game, but games don''t necessarily have to entertain. If this game makes the practice more efficent, then everyone will have more time to spend on things that they *really* find fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you can’t do it fine, but quit complaining about it and let someone else do it!
Look at this site how it encourages and they have a contest for it and they know it can be done. Even Richard Garriott is for that since his games reflected it and he will be the contest advisor.
The site
http://www.hiddenagenda.com
The guidelines
http://www.hiddenagenda.com/Sections/411/Teaching_List.html

Sheesh I even came up with a few ideas about a math game in how it can be fun kind of like lemmings and some want to cop out and say it’s a restriction?

Remember “professionals” never complain it can’t be done they find a way to do it and many of them tell me that which are in different professions.

Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Warsong
If you can’t do it fine, but quit complaining about it and let someone else do it!


What I don´t like is that your pretentious assumptions are usually borderline insulting and rather pointless. It´s not about "can´t", any mediocre designer can make a learning game - it´s more about "don´t want to". Learning games, Ad Games - that´s usually the kind of stuff you do to earn your money. Also, for an educational game you need to do a fair bit of rather boring research - topic matter on the one hand, learning theories on the other. Not much fun I´m afraid.

If you really want to become the resident design guru I suggest you either post stuff of yours for critique or you start a project *without any ideas of your own*. Leave all the design work to the forum people. All you do is structure the ideas and give out tasks to complete. That should keep you and those who are interested occupied for quite a while.
And the best thing yet - if you manage to pull it off you´ll actually have a game in the end. The thing you´ll learn is how it is to work with other peoples ideas, what they´ll gain is the experience of only contributing a small aspect to a game which someone else makes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
Just curious: is THAT a real test to pass 8th grade?...I was able to get an A at that in the 6th grade...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Warsong
If you can’t do it fine, but quit complaining about it and let someone else do it!

Let me put it another way: your signal to noise ratio is low. Please increase the amount of signal and/or decrease the amount of noise. Design challenges on the forums are fine. For one thread.

When EVERY POST is a new meaningless challenge, it''s just cluttering up the front page.

Or, as you might have said yourself:
If you can’t think of anything interesting to discuss fine, but quit posting empty challenges and let someone else do it!


ld

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How''s this: mixing the inherent puzzle-solving of algebra with the psychology of poker...

Algebraic Poker

In this game, each player knows the values of variables in the other player''s polynomial. As you begin taking steps to solve your polynomial for a certain variable, watch how the other player bets... should you fold or continue? Should you bet high or low?

GAME INITIALIZATION
1. Each player is given a sum of chips

HAND INITIALIZATION
2. Each player is given the same random polynomial equation with 5 variables (a, b, c, d, and e).

3. Each player can secretly assign the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, to each variable.

Example: a=3, b=2, c=5, d=4, e=1

4. Each player can do 5 operations to unsimplify their polynomial or move terms around.
- Select a term or part of a term by left click and drag.
- Left-click a selected term and drag it to another position on the same side of the =
- Left-click a selected term and drag to other side of = and it reverses sign
- Right-click on a selected term to select multiply or divide from a pop-up window, then multiply or divide the term on both sides of the equation.
- Hit "+", "-", "*" or "/" to pop up a constant dialogue that applies it to the equation.

5. Players trade equations and review them. Then play begins with player 1.

MOVE PHASE
6. Current player places 1 chip in the pot and does an operation on their equation.

Note: If this isolates one variable to the left side of the equation, then skip to step 11.

BETTING PHASE
7. Current Player places a bet of 0-3 chips.

8. Other player can match, match and raise (up to 3 chips), or fold.

9. If other player raises, then current player can match or fold.

FOLDING: Remaining player gets the pot. Go to step 2

Continuing:
10. Switch to next player, then goto step 6.

END HAND:
11. Other player decides whether to fold or continue (since they know the value of the current player''s isolated variable). If they fold, then they forfeit the pot and game goes to step 2.

12. If other player continues, then they place 1 chip in the pot for each remaining operation until they can isolate 1 variable to the left hand side.

WINNING THE HAND:
13. The variables are now shown their assigned values. The player with the highest value gets the pot. Then goto step 2.

WINNING THE GAME
Out of funds: game over and surviving player wins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[Mindless Babble]

How about a game that features mathematical applications, rather than lessons? Instead of setting up puzzles and demanding that the player crunch a set of numbers, give him tasks to complete. By that standard, Simcity or any other such game is educational. If you want practice drilling simple math, just make a quiz show or number-munchers type of game, and add multiplayer.

I don''t know why it has to be math, and I don''t know why it has to be at a second-grade level. Why not have a game that reinforces knowledge of psychological theories, or an application of physics? Carmen Sandiego games teach geography in a fun and engaging way. How about an adventure game based on the Time Squad cartoon? Just make the player be the little kid who knows what was supposed to happen in history.

In games like that, though, I''d say that it might be better not to make the player train the skills, but rather to present them in the context of the game. I learned a lot about Chinese history from the Dynasty Warriors games, and I also read up on the period so as to better understand exactly what was up with Lu Bu. He rocked. So Dynasty Warriors 3 is an educational game.

Okay, who remembers that old game from about 1992 where you played as a number 3 that fell off of the spreadsheet and needed to get through bizarre and infuriating puzzles in order to get home? You went through the computer, meeting different components, and completing math or word puzzles to continue, under the pretense that you had to fix or reorganize each section in order to continue. That game was fun, and while it didn''t really teach you anything (except perhaps some marginally correct computer structure), it sharpened thinking and problem-solving skills. I think that counts as educational, and God knows I put in more than a few sixth-grade hours on it.

[/Mindless Babble]

So, in conclusion, "educational" is a crappy qualifier. Naroowly defined, it can only apply to very formulaic Math Blasters-esque games, and broadly defined, it can apply to every game that has grenades fly with a parabolic trajectory. These exercises need to either be better designed or retired altogether.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In real life people call professionals to solve their problems, and some do the work with ease or difficulty and some don’t do it since they don’t know how yet. Some things are far fetched but even the site with the contest asks for games to have some information of learning.
If people don’t want to do it fine if their creativity is to certain games types and are the best at that then good for you, but if you want to try and see then good luck. Many games before they were made were told they were impossible to make fun but many of them have been made and everyone forgets what was told about them.

Like the Iron chef carnage said “How about a game that features mathematical applications, rather than lessons” which that is a step in the right direction.

5010
At least you gave an effort and that’s does seem interesting, and thanks for giving the effort.

Here is a quick effort in how math can be in a game and semi entertaining or a lot of some:
A game like pool but you have to make the ball stop on a certain spot on the table after you bounce it off 2 walls which you know the distance of the 2. You also have to calculate the amount of power you use which that would be in a harder level and the difficulty increases. You get the idea? The levels progress

OR
Another idea would me to be a side view like lemming and you have to know how much material you need before you start building to connect to a diagonal platform to all the lemming can pass.

OR
Have a game where you have a catapult and you have to hit the other castle which you have a certain amount of measurements, and whoever can solve the solution faster wins.

ETC.
The point is that general games don’t take a lot of technical thought and people want it easy without that much thought so educational games should not be cluttered so much with hard problems at first but easy first then getting harder after you mastered the simpler ones. Math is all around us. Just because it isn’t fun for you doesn’t mean it’s not fun for others. Rate them the quick examples if you like but just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean others wont. Many of the people that don’t play regular skill and kill games would like these games. The problem is that many

Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why not have an action game with learning elements in it? If you ever played Word Munchers before, then you would know what I'm talking about.

Let's say that you are trapped in a Resident Evil type game and you have to find certain artifacts, and return them to their proper places of the world. You have to dig up evidence that will have much to do with world history.

[edited by - smiley4 on October 16, 2003 5:06:13 PM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
though all of your threads, IMO, have been interesting if not thought provoking. i think the thing you should do is start to create a game from start to finish.

i mean start a a completely different thread (though some may complain that you''ve started too many as it is) and begin to start a game based on one of your prior threads.

it''ll be almost like a diary. you''ll show us your thought process, how you flesh out your ideas and other things like your design doc, tech doc, programming templates, target audience, target platform, etc.

that way others can see how Warsong goes about Game Design. plus you''ll have a following. If anything, you could probably ask Dave to give you a little webspace here to begin on the project.

anyway it''s just a thought. and i believe most people would agree that it''s the best thing to do at this point, instead of posting different "Design contests".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Where the people to say that the ideas I came up with suck? A bad comment is better than no comment but I gave an effort, which that helps spark some juices flowing for some. If people hate the idea come on comment about it on why it’s bad and what is lacks and need.
Does it need violence? Explosions? Sex? Blood? Insults? Maybe some want a game where you have a fun and you have to reflect your bullet off a metal to hit someone to make his head “explode” and you see all the “blood” while the guy was having “sex” and “insulting” the women, which that would be great and “violent” enough for all the GTA3 and Mortal Kombat enthusiasts. That seems to implement math with the thing they love like violence which is not restricted in design like most want. Ugggggggggg If people like that then that’s not good, and the sad thing is that sooner or later someone will make a game like that and be publicized on the news to get a lot of publicity which will make a lot of money. Now this reminds me of the anime movie Gogo13, strange movie.

Anyway ever hear that the right path is the hard long narrow path? Anyway…
=======================’
Smiley4
You idea mixes learning within the game well which more games should do it and it’s a good idea. It can also be that you find answers on how to solve the math problems instead of finding useless information which gets stuck in the head. Regular games are like eating pizza all the time, we need to add some nutrition in our diet eat pizza in moderation to appreciate it more.
=======================`
Alpha_progdes
I don’t like to present games that much since I find it cheap that others take it. I said some ideas and some take bits and peaces. People that take ideas butcher the idea and its better not to say anything. I seen some publishes games butcher good ideas and only rely on one nifty idea to sell the same but they need more to make it work better, even though you have people going gaga over moderate games.

I presented 1/2 a game and they are rating it like someone rates ½ a painted picture since they say its good but say that some thing are not their even though they are but they are in the other ½. If you look at my history you can see one game I presented and when I showed it to some people that are making a game like that they wanted to take a lot of ideas from it even though the ideas I presented were the ½ low end ideas.

I posted sometimes on how to think about making games and the last thread was a way to think about it. Since If a person can do all he can with no button then he moves to one button and get all the ideas out from than then progress sot the next.

Another way to go about it to evaluate games from the old and see how they evolve and what grows and see the patterns to see what would work well next. Just like knowing how to pass 1st grad then you go to 2nd and so on, because jumping the basics will hurt you later on and you won’t get a better grasp.

Another way is to dissect a game to its basic form and see how to simply explain it and see its structure. Just like how you would open an old or new walkman to see how it works.
There other techniques that people can see in how others companies, nature, or philosophies work which some of those principals can help. To just get mad and that someone tries to help motivate someone and tries to make them think isn’t a bad thing. People are not the best and no one is here is the best which one way for many to learn it to listen and take healthy criticism, since people that cant take criticism and wont learn from it on their design wont help make things better and they will limit themselves to a certain category.

Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No comments? I even invite people to attack what’s wrong with the 3 math ideas I said and no one is saying. hmm I am wondering if people really did like the violent version. Maybe educational games need a bit of violence to be cool in today’s world.

I remember donkey kong math for the nes how it was lame and I heard one parents in the department store saying she will only bye her kid educational games LOL. Funny thing is that Nintendo only came with a hand full of them so it was a waste to get it. she would have been better off with board games.

If we were back 20 years would people say that games are restricted? So would that mean the untalented ones designed games back then or maybe some would say they had lame designs anyway.

If a law came out that games had to be educational would everyone in the industry go since they are restricted?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Warsong
No comments? I even invite people to attack what’s wrong with the 3 math ideas I said and no one is saying.


Heres an idea: go away and <b>goddamn implement something.</b> You can''t just look at abstract ideas all day long and know whats fun and interesting to play, sometimes you''ve just got to go and prototype it.

Go. Go make your game and come back with a working prototype. We don''t care if the art sucks, or if there''s no animation or sound. Hell, we probably won''t care if its got no ''proper'' startup screens or menus. <i>Just as long as its a working prototype</i>. Make it in assembly language for all I care, or make it in Flash.

Then come back and start a disscussion of how to improve/modify/extend the idea (or whether to chuck it in the bin and move on). But only then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
warsong: why is it that any time someone doesn''t like what you say, they are automatically violence-loving morons?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anonymous
If I was a game programmer I would prototype it. And yes I agree that I and others should make proto types. But this post was to see if there are any good angles in how to design a learning game.

Krez
I didn’t say that or mean it that way. I said maybe some want violence in the game to make it sell. Well you can comment on the idea and if you think that some learning games need violence then say so. But those educational games would have to be college material in a way for people that like it that way I guess.
One thing that appeals to everyone is comedy, so a comical learning game is interesting, but I am just shooting in the dark here.

Don''t sing me a song :''( noooooooooo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites