Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

In game legal system

This topic is 5165 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Recommended Posts

Ever notice how in rpg everyone is always nice, happy and friendly. You can walk into someones home and go through their drawers pickup their favorite items and they couldn''t careless. Sure some games have any nearby npc attack you or send some guard over to attack you but thats about it. Also why is everone so honest? Where are dishonest merchants and peddlers. Think about it a mysterious peddler passing through town, claims to have the ancient vorpal sword a mystical blade that can decapiate even the strongest foe with a single swing, and it can be yours for the low low price of 1,000 dollars. Does that sound reliable? Would you by that sword from him in real life? Probably not, afterall he''s all most certinaly conning you. What I would like to see is a sytem of crimes and laws insitued into a game. In which there can be dishonest merchant and theives and the player has some recourse against and the npcs can charge the player with crimes aswell. Of course the game would require a set of knowledge stats in order for character to judge the authenticity of an item. They would be imporant for instance in determing if the statue is made of gold or merely gold plated, as well as telling how deadly the sword realy is. In fact the players knowledge could be greater then the merchant and so the old sword the merchant thinks is worthless the player might notice that is in fact a rare and powerful weapon. The laws would require somekind of enforecement and legal system that affects the player and acts as an actual deterent to crime or just as an incentive not to get caught. It would have to be something more elborate then guards comming and attacking the player. There could be imprisonment which would probably simply advance time and possibly age the player. But that would only have an impact if time and age play a factor in the game. The other idea I can think of is some kind of reputaion change perphas after commiting a crime, npc are lessen inclined to speak or do buisness with you or the guards my throw you out of the city or maybe to ensure security prevent you from leaving the city. Forcing the player to find alternate means of intercity travel and forcing them to locate black market stores. Well what do people think? Does anyone have ideas, thoughts or opions on how to improve this idea? ----------------------------------------------------- Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades Current Design project Chaos Factor Design Document

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the point is how much the players will enjoy such a in-game law system. I think players prefer more on no laws and be outlaw in game. So if laws are applied to players, they may not be happy.

Laws are partly applied in some MMORPG games, such as Ultima Online, including the bounty system, fame/karma system, even a GameMaster run jail system. So all left is just whether it's worthwile to code the npc AI for an in-game law system.

Basically, I dont think players will like to have an in-game legal system.



[edited by - Hawkins8 on October 20, 2003 12:51:03 AM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
There was very little law that was enforcible against traveling salespeople back in the middle ages. That''s why they hung them if they could catch them (the crooks, that is).

A game is about the player having fun. Getting ripped is not fun. Trying to emulate court process and law enforcement is not fun.

Perhaps you can design a unique game where it IS fun? Then hop to it and do!

There is one game featuring in-game law, of a sort: A Tale In The Desert. Players can vote on laws, and developers implement them if possible. (At least that was how it worked a year ago) Check it out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can think of one game named morrowind that had somewhat of a law system. I can''t remember if people tried to rip you off but if you stole something and got caught, you''d get fined. Same with killing someone. You could even go to jail. But the punishment was ridiculus at times. I could kill but just get a fine?

A lot would have to go into the law. Like if someone attacked you first, would you have the right do defend yourself? or would you still get fined afterwards?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hmm, So far the responses have all been negative it seem people don''t like the idea of laws and rules..
I just don''t see what part of it makes a game less fun, Does having consquence to once actions limit the amount of fun you have in game. If your playing as a defender of truth and justice then you should accept to be punished for robbing someones home are their prized butter knife of Uber evil slaying, like wise if kill every third person you meet while walking down the street, there should be some respone to that. After all most people don''t like that sort of thing. If you playing aa an evil character or a criminal then doesn''t law add an extra elemant of risk into the game? The chance of getting caught and punished would force you to be more cunning and careful in your actions.

Who''s to say getting ripped off isn''t fun in a game? I remeber while playing shenmue 2 I was playing darts for money, and ended up getting hussled out of 100 dollars. I couldn''t belive it, it was something geniunly amusing and scolded myself for being such a sucker, but I never made that mistake again.

Legal procceeding could be interesting, they would give the player a chance to use there speaking skills to influnce the course of justice and get away free, or they could try bribe the judge.

As to fines... I don''t really like that idea it just doesn''t seem fun or interesting, also I recall it was all very artifical feeling in morrowind. Maybe something more severe such as if caught stealing they cut off your hands for a first offense.

-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i think it could work, if you did it right. but, the crime shouldn''t even be reported if there are no witnesses, and if there are witnesses they must go to a guard/cop/courthouse/somewhere to report it (so you can kill them too, hide the bodies, and get away with it).

in morrowind, nothing annoyed me more than when i stole something or killed someone, and it said "your crime has been reported and you are expelled from such-and-such guild for stealing from another member", even thought the only person who knew besides me was the guy i was about to slaughter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In all cases so far, an in-game legal system has been kind of stupid and extremely boring. That doesn''t mean that you can''t do it though. It just means that nobody has YET. I would love to see what it looks like in the end.

--------------------------------------
I am the master of stories.....
If only I could just write them down...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i like it. anything that adds to the depth of the game is welcome, in my opinion. i've been working on a similar system for awhile now, but it's not fully formed. the executive is obviously the easiest part, but the judicial and legislative will need alot of work.

[edited by - syn_apse on October 21, 2003 9:40:02 PM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
final tactics on gba has a divine instance wich give rule for the battle and you get punish if you broke the rule

it add a lot of fun especially when the god gone insane and forbide for example all technic which begin with A



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Non RPG games have also had legal systems and done so very successfully - Grand Theft Auto springs to mind.

One thing I''m not so happy about with FFTA is that it''s not always obvious which actions break the ''Laws'' - for instance, I lost several hours play to a rule-set, which forbade "wind" attacks, and allowed "Air Render", but gave me a game over penalty for using my newly acquired "Air Blast". This also ties in to the perennial permadeath debate - a single mistake ending the game, although admittedly with fair warning given (a long time) in advance. This was the third time in about 30 hours play I''d accidentally broken a "law" and the chances of an accidental transgression ending the game appear to be somewhere around 1/6 - and the accidental transgressions could be virtually eliminated simply by putting in a warning notice whenever an illegal action is attempted.

Anyway, back on topic, in practice, every game has (at least) a binary "law" system - either you can do something or you can''t - comprising the game rules. What this thread is really about is moving some of these "laws" into a grey area - introducing relative levels of enforcement. Except in a very general sense, I think laws and reputation are two separate issues - apart from anything else, your criminal status should be distinct from your popularity in situations where the laws are oppressive or unjust (Robin Hood for example). The solution to dishonest itinerant traders isn''t a code of laws (unless you ban itinerant traders altogether and devote a lot of effort to enforcing it) but a reputation system - which probably regards all itinerant traders with suspicion by default, requiring them to earn peoples trust.

The other element worth considering in your legal system is the accessibility of the truth - the modern legal system is designed to... OK, probably to make lawyers and powerful men rich(er), but in theory to give the best chance of determining the truth and responding to it in a fair and standardised manner. If you have, say, a scrying spell capable of replaying the exact events of an (alleged) offence, then the entire court process becomes little more than a waste of time. Ditto truth spells, ditto Big Brother surveillance... In a situation where truth is readily accessible to the authorities, sentencing on the spot becomes feasible (possibly with right to appeal within a set period) and most people will accept assigned penalties without much fuss - like getting a parking ticket or a speeding fine.

My understanding of the feudal system''s legal system is that most "crimes" in a small community would be dealt with within the community anyway - if Uncle Bob''s old sword that his great granddad used in the wars goes missing, then the whole village will go to dogdy Dave''s house and demand it back, and ostracise him until he does return it... travellers passing through, serious offences, intransigent offenders and minor nobility or members of the manorial household would get referred to the local lord of the manor, who would have absolute authority to order whatever punishments he saw fit - except for a right of appeal to the "King''s justice" - the right to spend a couple of weeks on the road in order to present your case before the King, who has relatively little time to hear the case and pass summary judgement - depending on the number of petitioners - as the population increases, and travelling conditions become easier, more petitions come up, and the monarch has less time to spend on each, so the system breaks down...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The middle ages wheren''t a lawless era, in fact there where many laws many of which surive to this day. The main problem when refering to the middle ages is that people have this all encompassing view of a society and era that never really existed. There where many diffrence from region, and country and then as well there is no reall time period know as the middle ages, I assume people mean the late dark age europe around 1200-1600 AD when the say middle ages but then I could be wrong, Afterall fedual japan could conciveable be covered under the term middle ages but that is a very diffrent culture then the european cultures. But enough of the that side track.

Lets see...

First off I''d make it so that laws only apply if there is evidence left behind. So if you kill someone and there is a witness then you could charged and arrested for murder. If there noone saw a thing and theres no evidence then your going to get away with murder. Of course even if your arrested you can try and convice the magistrate of mitagating circumstance and get away with the murder.

As far as the legal system it would be kept very simple no jury or lawyers. I would stick with the accuser, defendent and the magistrate.



-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites