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Taulin

Originality in games (in response to Bishop Pass)

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Taulin    100
In another thread Bishop_pass wrote
quote:
Somewhere along the way - I don''t know when - there will be others entering the game industry with different interests to stir things up. Or those twenty somethings will become thirty somethings or forty somethings, gain new interests, yet remain in the game development field to energize the industry.
This is exactly what has been happening in Japanese game development over the last 10 or so years. Americans ( I don''t know if Europeans see it this way) see many of their games as futile, stupid or too weird. It should be also noted that there has also been great originality in games in the US also, however these don''t see much of the light of day since big publishers do not think they fit into he mold much. I found your statement stimulating and ignorant at the same time. (for those young, ignorant is not an insult) It is pretty hard to keep up with all consoles and PC games, but I wanted to post somewhere that variety is subdued not by the imagination of the current generation, but rather by the distributor and media. Too bad most people today need a local store to decide what they buy. I personally had to investigate hard to find my favorite Amiga games. Imports are becoming popular and regular, but are still subject to popularity than originality. P.S. Keep up the good work ''Bish

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Dmytry    1151
I''m sometimes seeing reviews of japanese games on TV,
russians also think that these games are too weird.And even very unsafe because instead of doing nice effects japanese games and animations sometimes just use 7hz blinking(it''s same frequency as some signals in brain).

I really like great old Japanese drawings,culture,etc. But i don''t like MODERN japanese animations(including games).I like OLD japanese animations.

IMHO,today japanese games and animations are bad mix of japanese and european(american) cultures.

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Taulin    100

Samples? Here is an example from several of them I do not see often in the US.

Densha De Go. Train simulation.
Gallop Racer. Horse racing simulations.
Tokimeki Memorial. Dating simulation (time management)
Taiko no Tatsujin. Drum game. Just one of the many instrument games they have

Gamespy also did a small article on this subject once Here

The game industry is still as innovative as ever, it is just that the plain US game market is covering it all up.

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Taulin    100
quote:
Original post by bishop_pass
Based upon my experiences here, I stand behind the gist of what I said.


Your gist sounds like you are saying the game industry is stale at this moment. How so?

If you are saying it is stale only "upon your experience here", are you saying the developers here are stale and lack originality?

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bishop_pass    109
quote:
Original post by Taulin
quote:
Original post by bishop_pass
Based upon my experiences here, I stand behind the gist of what I said.


Your gist sounds like you are saying the game industry is stale at this moment. How so?

If you are saying it is stale only "upon your experience here", are you saying the developers here are stale and lack originality?
I wrote about a page where you took that quote - and I explained it all there. I stand behind what I said.

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Taulin    100
Your gist basically says that there are not any original games because developers'' passions are narrow (limited to orcs and whatnot).

This is wrong, and my above posts prove it.

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
I may be an AP, which probably will hold no lasting merit or whatnot, but no matter.

quote:

It''s as if the world can be quantified in simple terms if it isn''t something they are passionate about.



I''ve been guilty of this myself but, in my defense, it''s not due to a lack of passion, it''s due to wanting to find a nice way to represent some of the amazing things I see in the world.

Part of the problem is that, with the lack of passion, the feeling of "good enough" comes into play. If it''s truely a passionate endeavor the "good enough" feeling might show up after you''ve beat your head against the wall trying to implement some extra feature or whatnot.

quote:

The answer is exactly those games which the subject matter was something the developers were passionate about - usually something along the lines of elves, orcs, auto racing or military hardware. Is is any coincidence that twenty something individuals involved in the tech/animation industry usually are most interested in that type of subject matter?



Interested? Yes. Passionate? Nah, I really don''t think that''s why there are so many orcs and elves (or even military games) these days. What tends to be the case, if you ask me (and no one did (; ), is that some people are rather passionate about such things and toss out a rather good game (ie D&D pen and paper) and people get accustomed to seeing such things and it therefore appeals to an audience that some other materials wouldn''t. I imagine if someone did a study on original fantasy game sales vs derived fantasy game sales those that are derived would probably have better sales. It''s what people know. They like that.

I thoroughly enjoy a good fantasy RPG, for instance, though I''m rather tired of the standard Tolkien/D&D based games. I don''t mind elves but orcs tend to bore me (; That''s beside the point, though, and what I should say is that I like the fantasy based stuff because I really get into the World of it (ie the more complex and fleshed out the backstory of the societies, the culture, the interactivity of the world etc really get me interested).

Hmm, I''m going to kill my own point here and say that those qualities I enjoy in fantasy based games could very well exist in any setting and I''d enjoy the game. I''m just used to it. I like that. Though the fantasy thing can be done well and provide an interesting setting I would like to use a different setting for an RPG whenever I get to the point of creating one (:

I think the problem lies in genres having very overused (tried and tested to the publishers, probably) settings. RPGs have the classic fantasy world. Shooters have either killing nazis or killing zombies or demons, or some combination/derivative. RTS tends to use military rather heavily and those that don''t are more simulation (though I''d love for someone to correct me and uncover some RTS that''s a bit different than the standard fare).

With independent developers this is a double-edged sword. I find myself often thinking of making a rather classical RPG setting with a great story and some fun gameplay dynamics to differentiate it. If I go for some abnormal (wrt my prior classification) setting, I risk turning off an audience or have the possibility of having something fresh and gaining a better audience from it.

I lean more towards blaming the publishers rather than the developers for the staleness these days. Some of these abnormal games do really quite well whereas others are huge flops. With the high cost of productions on games publishers are looking for sure things, and using this tried and tested formulas over and over and over.

Alright, I meant to argue a point in this post and after starting it realized it was going to be a meander through the discussion with a my ideas but I will say I''m in agreement with Taulin and politely request that bishop qualifies his statements in this thread a bit more, ie:

quote:

Based upon my experiences here, I stand behind the gist of what I said.



That''s all fine and dandy, but is useless in the vein of a discussion.

hm, perhaps I''ll register next time (:

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bishop_pass    109
AP, what have you said other than that you're into fantasy stuff - moreso than say, something else, say something that isn't along the lines that I claim developers are into.

Taulin, yeah sure, you'll find other stuff out there which defies what I'm saying, but why are you working to show it's out there? Possibly because it isn't prevalent? Ah, but you're going to say that it is prevalent in Japan. Well, that's great, but you had to bring it to people's attention here, becaue "here" isn't Japan, for the most part. "Here" is a place that develops and sells games relating to what I mentioned.

More to the point, take a look at the interests of twenty something people. Those interests change over time. When they become thirty something, or forty something, they'll have another ten or twenty years under their belt - and that means having tried new stuff - new stuff which makes what they used to like be not so interesting.

Time will tell.

[edited by - bishop_pass on January 7, 2004 9:41:23 PM]

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NaliXL    120
quote:
And even very unsafe because instead of doing nice effects japanese games and animations sometimes just use 7hz blinking(it''s same frequency as some signals in brain).


Whow! That sounds bizarre to me! Can you show me an example of that?

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Dmytry    1151
I''m remembering example from russian medicine-related tv program. Blinking eyes at nearly 7hz in animation that showed on tv,throusands of japanese childs got nerve shock(heck,they showed exact colors,patterns and frequencies in news,to be sure that every terrorist know that! ).You probably can find something by google
(epilepsy tv).

one resource about epilepsy:
http://www.epilepsytoronto.org/people/eaupdate/vol9-3.html
and about cartoon movie that caused epilepsy
http://www.salon.com/health/log/1999/06/02/color_sensitivity/

Japanese games commonly have flashing patterns(explosion as blinking polyline with "BANG!" inside are most dangerous). On some computer with some human it will blink at dangerous frequency.Together with hand motoring...

Also i know(and passed with result "too dumb to resonate" ;-) medical test,looking on strobe light with electrodes on the head.To test if you have hidden epilepsy.

On biology TV i saw nice decapoda(like octopode but with ten legs ... i don''t know name in english) that blinks on special rate,turning lopster''s(not exactly lopster,again don''t know name) nerve systems into resonance,so lopster was unable to escape.Nearly 100% of lopsters resonate.

Also i saw one russian 128b intro. It produced blinking on sevral frequencies together with dangerous patterns...

So we need forum "biology in games".

Those "stylistic" and "original" games are most dangerous.
Our nerve system could work with realistic images because it''s designed to work with ''em,

and non-realistic animation that does,say,effect of explosion,are potentially dangerous because one way to do effect of explosion and shock without explosion is shocking nerve system by pattern or blinking.And that effects are MORE realistic than "photorealistic" image of explosion. TOO REALISTIC.

I don''t play games now,so i''m not expert,but i know something about biology, physics, and math .

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Dmytry    1151
I like puzzle games. Like good old Supaplex,especially thinking levels without "scissors". They aren''t photorealistic and are IMO original. Chess,etc. are very original games,developed at east(relatively to europe). And puzzles still developed ,but them not so popular as "kill something" games.

And of course no one will name puzzle games "original" because for avg.gamer,chess,other more-or-less damn-thinking-required games are the same.

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by bishop_pass
AP, what have you said other than that you''re into fantasy stuff - moreso than say, something else, say something that isn''t along the lines that I claim developers are into.



err, funny, while I know my post was rather filled with ramble, it had much more to it than saying I liked fantasy games (even the part right after where I correct myself to say that it''s not the fantasy portion that I''m into.

*shrug* alright, I tried, but it seems you''ve read only the first two paragraphs of my post and moved on.

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Bad Maniac    252
quote:
Original post by Coder
This is the "Graphics Programming and Theory" forum. Please take this to the appropriate forum.
Muhammad Haggag


Hey Haggag dude, this is "Graphics Theory" if anything was ever, so please STFU! (always wanted to say that...)

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