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phemmer

C # hype ?????

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phemmer    122
Hi, after reading a lot ''bout the new secret weapon of MS i tried to figure out what it really is. I looked at MS web pages, but what i found there was a lot of advertisement an promises but not too many facts. From the facts i have seen, it is something similiar to JAVA, but much poorer on some important points (platform independency for example). Even TCL/TK seems to me much better. So is there anybody out there who can tell me why they created it, and will it be used for game development ???? cu Peter

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RWarden    118
Why don''t you try looking at the language reference? Plenty of facts there .

Anyway C# is basically part of Microsoft''s .NET framework. It''s "what C++ must evolve into in order to become part of .NET". Basically it all boils down to CRL - the common runtime library, which is kinda like a VM. Basically CRL compiled bytecode into native code at runtime and runs the native code. Currently this results in about a 10% speed decrease (this isn''t the final version, of course, so it will probably be optimized down a few percentage points).

What''s the point? Well, in Visual Studio 7.0, all languages compile to the same CRL bytecode. So you can theoretically have two source files in the same project, one VB and one C#, and have them compile together without flaws. However, to do this, they have to make all the languages have the same base set of features. So they''re adding stuff to VB like C++-style exception handling and polymorphism. But since they don''t control C++ they can''t just change the language, so they''re making C#, which has stuff like automatic garbage collection.

What does it mean to game developers? Squat. No serious game developer is going to be compiling to CRL with a 10% slowdown, especially when that means developing in a language with absolutely no portability. And the new benefits that all of this stuff provides mainly has to do with COM, and has little to do with making games (most of it has to do with Web integration).
But, it will have some impact, mostly when it comes to DirectX. Expect new versions of DirectX to become much, much easier to work with when COM becomes built into the compiler. And for regular Windows application programming, especially where speed and/or portability isn''t important, .NET rocks.

-RWarden (roberte@maui.net)

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bear    122
So does this mean that Java on the Windows platform is over even though Microsoft''s version of Java wasn''t compliant?

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Guest Anonymous Poster
"What does it mean to game developers? Squat. No serious game developer is going to be compiling to CRL with a 10% slowdown, especially when that means developing in a language with absolutely no portability. And the new benefits that all of this stuff provides mainly has to do with COM, and has little to do with making games (most of it has to do with Web integration)."

10% slower, yeah but think of the saving in development time. That either means faster to market or better yet more time to play balance. Not to mention that you''ll have fewer problems, not using pointers and having automatic garbage collection ought to reduce errors. Some people won''t mind the 10% cut, some will. I mean the C and assembly people probably look at C++ and see that as the 10%.

Portability is over valued. The vast majority of games are windows only so it isn''t an issue for them at all. A few games are ported so for them it is an issue.

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MadKeithV    992
Another stab:
COM and the CLR and C# are open enough to be implemented by other vendors. There are some versions of COM available on the UNIX platform if I''m not mistaken.

The implication of this is, that ANY platform supporting COM and the CLR will automatically support anything written in any of the .NET languages...

Now I think that classifies as portability


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NuffSaid    122
MadKeith:
Just a thought though, with all the anti-MS sentiment floating around,do you think there''ll be many ports to other operating systems?

========================================================
If something sounds stupid but works, it's not stupid

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MadKeithV    992
Personally, I think the MS bashers should get off their ass and embrace the standard...
A decent COM implementation for Linux could be the boost that the OS needs to make it in the market. It''s their loss if they refuse to use something that Microsoft has thought up, just because it was Microsoft. They have a lot of very intelligent people working there, and their ideas aren''t so stupid sometimes.



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phemmer    122
Hi,

first of all i want to make sure that i am not somehow "married" to a specific OS and i must admit that i like using GUI''s for developing far better than the old fashioned makefile commandline stuff , but there are some facts which have to be mentioned.
I use 6 UNIX plattforms and NT, Win95, Win98 and whatever is neccessary (even hosts and MVS if they use weapons on me).

"Personally, I think the MS bashers should get off their ass and embrace the standard..."

Why should they do that since the world has something really working called CORBA for such a long time which has no security problems and is really used all over the world. I must admit that COM hast it''s moments but to cover everything which is needed in that business it has still a long way to go. Other question.
Why is MS not accepting the standards like JAVA and CORBA ?
What''s the need reinventing the wheel over and over again ?


"A decent COM implementation for Linux could be the boost that the OS needs to make it in the market. It''s their loss if they refuse to use something that Microsoft has thought up, just because it was Microsoft.

Since i am mainly currently working in the bank business developing server apps which have the need for a 99.99% availability i have a lot of experience with different OS. All i can say is that i have some server apps running on NT and on UNIX and they both do their jobs for 24 hours daily and 365 day a year. But there is a lot of stuff that makes live much easier on the UNIX side like remote administration and debugging on UNIX. What i really would like to have on NT are things like core files after a crash instead of Dr. Watson for example.
Reason like the ones above lead to the fact that a lot of german banks do not use MS software at all wherever there is a real hard job to do. Some others used NT and ask now for LINUX solutions because it is more reliable and easier to maintain for them and i think Microsoft is aware of these facts (see Helloween white papers on the net).


"They have a lot of very intelligent people working there, and their ideas aren''t so stupid sometimes."
I think that is absolutely right, but that has no effect if they do not get the chance to remove the bugs from the last version of something; instead they are forced to come out with something new.


cu

Peter



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dwarfsoft    1229
I think that personally, I will stick with what I have (MSVC, BCC, BCB, Delphi, TP, QB, VB, some other stuff ). And not bother with C#.

And whoever is bashing M$, I have to say that I do not agree with some of their practices, but there is no way of fighting that market share! (and I really don''t care what OS I use, so long as it isn''t MacOS ).


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ImmaGNUman    122
If Linux embraces COM Im moving over to *BSD. I have no current need to see a Linux API become like one of MSes.

-----------------------------

A wise man once said "A person with half a clue is more dangerous than a person with or without one."

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phemmer    122

"If Linux embraces COM Im moving over to *BSD. I have no current need to see a Linux API become like one of MSes."

Dont worry, KDE was written using a new and fast CORBA implementation. By the way there are enterprises like RogueWave out there who have developed hybrid object brokers, they can use CORBA and/or COM at the same time.

cu

Peter

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