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Cyplex

It seems no matter how good they get...

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It seems that no matter how good these games look, they can never animate truly realistic hands in games like that. That max payne game is no exception. The hands are too short and so are the fingers. It doesn''t even look like the fingers go through the gun at all. It may sound petty but with probably a decade or more of improvement on the original Doom or even Wolfenstein 3d, you would think they could get the shape of a hand right. Other than that the game is very impressive though. I would play the game it just bugs me that more effort isn''t plugged into a more realistic body (the hands specifically). ---- Cyplex

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quote:
Original post by Cyplex

It seems that no matter how good these games look, they can never animate truly realistic hands in games like that. That max payne game is no exception. The hands are too short and so are the fingers. It doesn't even look like the fingers go through the gun at all. It may sound petty but with probably a decade or more of improvement on the original Doom or even Wolfenstein 3d, you would think they could get the shape of a hand right.
Other than that the game is very impressive though. I would play the game it just bugs me that more effort isn't plugged into a more realistic body (the hands specifically).


---- Cyplex


I would imagine it probably has a lot to do with poly count. To do a decently detailed hands, with fully articulating fingers adds a ton of poly's. I haven't played Max Payne so I can't comment on it specifically. I did just look at the screenshots though, and see what you're saying. It all comes down to the models. They're still using low poly models, and you are pretty limited by that.



Edited by - Criterion on July 21, 2000 12:13:41 PM

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Drawing hands has been the bane of animators for a long time. Anything that isn''t a picture perfect human hand looks funny with four fingers. That''s why most cartoon characters have only three fingers, when they have four fingers they look like freaks. Even realistic looking cartoons have funny looking hands, even though they are drawn exactly to scale. I guess the same goes for polygon characters in games.

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Cyplex has a good point. How many more polygons would it take to make a realistic hand? I''ll estimate around 30-35 per hand, so about 70 for a character, and maybe 150 at max if the characters feet are also computed. how many characters are usualy visible in a FPS? An average of 10 lets say. Thats at most 1500 more polygons per frame. 1500 is toe fungus to most graphics accerater cards today. But there were good points made on the artists being lazy, or not skilled enough, hehe, to make a good hand, and that might be also true.

=======================================
A man with no head is still a man.
A head with no man is plain freaky.

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i''m going to have to agree with big b on this one. the hand is the most difficult part of the human body to draw, animate, articulate, model, etc. and may not necessarily be the point of focus for a game. that''s why development teams have priority lists. i haven''t seen max payne either, but even i have difficulty modelling a hand for my animated short film. cut ''em some slack.

a2k

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Zipster

Cyplex has a good point. How many more polygons would it take to make a realistic hand? I''ll estimate around 30-35 per hand, so about 70 for a character, and maybe 150 at max if the characters feet are also computed. how many characters are usualy visible in a FPS? An average of 10 lets say. Thats at most 1500 more polygons per frame. 1500 is toe fungus to most graphics accerater cards today. But there were good points made on the artists being lazy, or not skilled enough, hehe, to make a good hand, and that might be also true.

=======================================
A man with no head is still a man.
A head with no man is plain freaky.


1500 polys may be toe fungus to you, but for most game artists trying to get the least amount of polys to the programmers, 1500 polys that don''t HAVE to be there are 1500 polys that AREN''T there. If you have looked at the "beauty shots" (I''m assuming they''re from ingame cinimatics) in addition to the shots where the funky looking hands are, you will see that the artists have *NO* problem making realistic looking hands. There was obviously a problem bringing those hands into the playable part of the game, else they would be there.
You can look at all the high poly #''s a 3d card manufacturer spews all day long and think it''s a huge #, but divide that # by 60 (fps) then think about how much power has to go into computing things like lighting and shadows, and you REALLY want the poly count to be as low as possible.

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quote:
Original post by Big B
Drawing hands has been the bane of animators for a long time. Anything that isn''t a picture perfect human hand looks funny with four fingers.

hmm.... i think you could do with only thum, index finger and other three put together. this wouldnt take that much polys, and you have 10 bones only for articulating, ( 3 for thumb, 3 for index, 3 for other fingers and 1 for palm ), and if you take proportions from real hand, does it still look freakish ?

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I think I''ve seen the thumb, index, and other hand in another game and it didn''t look all that realistic. The problem is that even if you have all the fingers fully articulated with polygons it will still look artificial because our fingers are round, not made up of squares. The best we could do is to have a seperate high detailed model of the hand for close up shots, and have a lower poly-counted hand on all the models. Besides, the hand is relatively small compared to the rest of the body, and in a FPS it is usually obscured by a gun anyway.
If a game does end up having revolutionary hands in it, theres a good chance that no one will notice (except Cyplex). They will only add to the overall realism of the game, but any game after with hands that aren''t as good will be noted for its bad hands.

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if u have seen the summoner animation file thats on various websites to show off the animation in the game the characters have a the index finger, the thumb and the other three are bind together

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guys, I wasn''t talking about making a fully articulate hand. On most of these games the hand is on the gun. Just have a more realistic shot of that. They didn''t cut *that* many poly''s by making the hands "shorter" than they are in real life. I wasn''t talking about having each bone animated, just having the hand the right size would be nice. It was more of an observation of mine than a criticism to every game out there. They are all good games, I just WANTED a better shaped hand. I know that it is important to shave poly''s off anywhere possible.

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