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Dak Lozar

More on Players as Monsters

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OK, I made a post about three weeks ago concerning players as monsters. I enjoyed all of the responses and especially want to give thanks to "The Senshi" for his ideal for players becoming monsters with every evil action. We have tentatively agreed that we will employ this into our MMORPG. The system is still a little fuzzy and probably has holes to boot. Just thought I would post a high-level of what we are planning and see what you guys think. A little background: The big three MMORPGs have all moved into a PK/NONPK zone or server concept. This is a Role Playing Game, and as such, murders and PKing is going to happen. To curve the rampant murdering and such we decided to create a religion based on the East Indian philosophy of Karma. This quote is the central point of the "religion": "What becomes of this man? Indeed, one becomes good by good action and bad by bad action." -Sage Yajnavalkya Here is what we are going to do. A player who murders another player will begin a transformation from his current self into a monster. With the first kill his physical appearance will be altered. Stats and Skills will remain unchanged. With each subsequent PK, the player will continue to physically change. If the player performs a "good" action he will be changed to his previous state (e.g.: if a player has killed twice and performs a good action he will look as if he only killed once). When the player reaches the HIGH mark that we have set, he will be a monster. When this happens his skills and stats will be affected. If this player is killed as a monster he will be resurrected as a lesser monster than he was (again, Karma-like). [ FROM KRESSILAC: As you PK more and more you become more like a monster. When you hit a high water mark you change into a monster at the next death. You must perform good-acts to revert back to your prior self. Works like the Caste system in India where the more bad things you do causes you to move down on the evolutionary ladder. Difference here is you can become less than human. If you PK as a monster you will become a lesser monster (ie Orc Warrior -> Orc -> Orc peon...) when you die as that monster. If you PK as a monster eventually you will get to the point where your character is so weak that it is in effect a permanent death. There is a two week period where your corpse will remain in game, for you to work your way out of the bad karma you have created for yourself. To do this you must do "good deeds" ] There are some other things to take into account. In the example that I gave above, where the player has killed twice and performs a "good" action... if the player performs a PK then he will be treated as if he has killed 3 and not as 2. This will eliminate "most" of the senseless killing. What is a "good" action? This isn't completely ironed out as of yet, but the following have been mentioned. Quest, helping other players kill monsters, maybe even killing other PK's who are monsters I look forward to you comments. Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser Edited by - Dak Lozar on 7/24/00 2:21:16 PM

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Some people seem to think I hate slaughterfests. I don''t! I just hate it when slaughterfests pretend they''re something more than that! I really like this idea, I only have one question: How are you going to handle players killing PKs? The simple answer would be that it does nothing, but think harder about the statements you''ve already made.

Killing in this world will turn you into a monster. What does that say about killing?

Is killing a "monster" any different? After all,were they not men?

I think the death = transformation thing should stay absolute, even if you kill a "monster". Make it easier to fight without killing, so you can balance out the world a bit.

=====
Are you aware that the people who bring you television actually refer to it openly as "programming?"

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quote:

especially want to give thanks to "The Senshi" for his ideal for players becoming monsters with every evil action.



Glad my ideas helped .

quote:

What is a "good" action? This isn''t completely ironed out as of yet, but the following have been mentioned. Quest, helping other players kill monsters, maybe even killing other PK''s who are monsters



Maybe the players could rate actions. For instance, if someone attacks you, you could rate it as a bad action. Or if they heal you, you could rate it as a good action. Of course, you''d need to do a few things to prevent abuse, such as only allowing players to rate one action every 10 minutes, but you get the idea.

Of course, the computer could just be programmed to look for this kind of stuff too. It could just have some predefined "good" and "bad" behaviors that it takes note of. I doubt it would be too hard to program.

Of course, both these systems are somewhat open to abuse, but so is just about everything in a multiplayer game.

Finally, maybe you could just base how monsterish you are off of what others think of you. IE, your reputation with other *players* changes what you look like. The cool thing about this system is that you could do all sorts of criminal acts as long as nobody notices .

----------------------------------------
Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant and she fell on me? Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny.

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Well we all know what can constitute a bad action, but how do you judge, and keep track of, *good* actions?

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quote:
Original post by Freakshow
Killing in this world will turn you into a monster. What does that say about killing?

Is killing a "monster" any different? After all,were they not men?


Freakshow, you have raised a very good question.
Our Karma-like religion will not be exactly as you are thinking.
Killing monsters will be considered a "good thing." Killing other people is a "bad thing."
Monsters, even though they were once men, are still monsters. So, killing a monster who was once a PK is encouraged...



Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

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Well, good actions are pretty obvious IMHO. For instance, in Everquest it might include:

- Healing other players in battle
- Giving away items
- Selling things at undervalued prices
- Giving away money
- Completing quests

Almost all of those would be pretty easy to detect.

----------------------------------------
Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant and she fell on me? Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny.

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quote:
Original post by jaymz
Well we all know what can constitute a bad action, but how do you judge, and keep track of, *good* actions?


Again, as I said... this part isn''t complete as of yet.
We are thinking that quest will be the predominent method of regaining yourself (that sounds cool).
So, if your in this transistion period and are killed by another monster or by a PC, when you are resurected you will be given the opportunity to perform a quest...
Other "good" actions that I listed are helping others kill monsters (easily determined) or just killing monsters (Killing what you are becoming in order to revert to yourself has a good twist to it).

Again, all of the "good" things haven''t been defined, for that matter all of the "bad" things haven''t either



Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

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quote:

Freakshow, you have raised a very good question.
Our Karma-like religion will not be exactly as you are thinking.
Killing monsters will be considered a "good thing." Killing other people is a "bad thing."
Monsters, even though they were once men, are still monsters. So, killing a monster who was once a PK is encouraged...



I like that a lot less.

It would be really bold of you to stick to the anti-murder message, and then watch as the world became overrun by monsters, with a small but noble human population doing everything it can to survive. Now that''s a statement.

I would actually structure the story around it! Since you''ve already validated a religion, I would say that things werren''t always this way. The reason that people now become monsters is a kind of "wrath of god" punishment that wasn''t always around! That way you make a great story out of the demonization of an entire society!

And what would make this all truly awesome? Why, not telling the players, of course. Let them think it''s just a standard MMORPG, then throw them this curveball! Heh. You''re not gonna do it, are you?

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quote:
Original post by Landfish


I like that a lot less.

It would be really bold of you to stick to the anti-murder message, and then watch as the world became overrun by monsters, with a small but noble human population doing everything it can to survive. Now that's a statement.

I would actually structure the story around it! Since you've already validated a religion, I would say that things werren't always this way. The reason that people now become monsters is a kind of "wrath of god" punishment that wasn't always around! That way you make a great story out of the demonization of an entire society!

And what would make this all truly awesome? Why, not telling the players, of course. Let them think it's just a standard MMORPG, then throw them this curveball! Heh. You're not gonna do it, are you?


Hmmm, Landfish... now why do you want to make me go and reevaluate this?
I can see where you guys are coming from, but the point of all this is to elliminate the need for PK/NONPK zones/servers.
I don't like the segreated servers. It just doesnt seem right, does it to you? I mean where can you go on this planet and be completely safe from other people?
And... if the monster race where to take over... sheesh that could be a mess.
Again, our attempt is to curve or unglamorize the act of PKing.
For another thing (Don't take this the wrong way, because I do belive in God), religions aren't perfect. Remember history...
Our religion is not going to be perfect it is merely a reason why things are the way they are
So, in our religion killing evil is good


Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Edited by - Dak Lozar on July 24, 2000 7:11:02 PM

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quote:
Original post by Landfish

I like that a lot less.

It would be really bold of you to stick to the anti-murder message, and then watch as the world became overrun by monsters, with a small but noble human population doing everything it can to survive. Now that's a statement.

I would actually structure the story around it! Since you've already validated a religion, I would say that things werren't always this way. The reason that people now become monsters is a kind of "wrath of god" punishment that wasn't always around! That way you make a great story out of the demonization of an entire society!

And what would make this all truly awesome? Why, not telling the players, of course. Let them think it's just a standard MMORPG, then throw them this curveball! Heh. You're not gonna do it, are you?


I really like this idea, but I don't think that it could work in any practical sense. The problem is that if you can kill as a monster, but you can't as a good being, then most people will choose to be monsters. In fact, I'm guessing just about everyone will end up being a monster simply because it will be impossible to have fun playing on the other side when your being overrun by hordes of monsters. It would do the exact opposite of what you'd want: it would degenerate basically into a PKing hackfest.

In other words, from a literary standpoint, this seems like a great idea. But from a gameplay standpoint, it's asking for trouble .

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Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant and she fell on me? Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny.

Edited by - The Senshi on July 24, 2000 7:59:50 PM

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