Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Dak Lozar

More on Players as Monsters

Recommended Posts

OK, I made a post about three weeks ago concerning players as monsters. I enjoyed all of the responses and especially want to give thanks to "The Senshi" for his ideal for players becoming monsters with every evil action. We have tentatively agreed that we will employ this into our MMORPG. The system is still a little fuzzy and probably has holes to boot. Just thought I would post a high-level of what we are planning and see what you guys think. A little background: The big three MMORPGs have all moved into a PK/NONPK zone or server concept. This is a Role Playing Game, and as such, murders and PKing is going to happen. To curve the rampant murdering and such we decided to create a religion based on the East Indian philosophy of Karma. This quote is the central point of the "religion": "What becomes of this man? Indeed, one becomes good by good action and bad by bad action." -Sage Yajnavalkya Here is what we are going to do. A player who murders another player will begin a transformation from his current self into a monster. With the first kill his physical appearance will be altered. Stats and Skills will remain unchanged. With each subsequent PK, the player will continue to physically change. If the player performs a "good" action he will be changed to his previous state (e.g.: if a player has killed twice and performs a good action he will look as if he only killed once). When the player reaches the HIGH mark that we have set, he will be a monster. When this happens his skills and stats will be affected. If this player is killed as a monster he will be resurrected as a lesser monster than he was (again, Karma-like). [ FROM KRESSILAC: As you PK more and more you become more like a monster. When you hit a high water mark you change into a monster at the next death. You must perform good-acts to revert back to your prior self. Works like the Caste system in India where the more bad things you do causes you to move down on the evolutionary ladder. Difference here is you can become less than human. If you PK as a monster you will become a lesser monster (ie Orc Warrior -> Orc -> Orc peon...) when you die as that monster. If you PK as a monster eventually you will get to the point where your character is so weak that it is in effect a permanent death. There is a two week period where your corpse will remain in game, for you to work your way out of the bad karma you have created for yourself. To do this you must do "good deeds" ] There are some other things to take into account. In the example that I gave above, where the player has killed twice and performs a "good" action... if the player performs a PK then he will be treated as if he has killed 3 and not as 2. This will eliminate "most" of the senseless killing. What is a "good" action? This isn't completely ironed out as of yet, but the following have been mentioned. Quest, helping other players kill monsters, maybe even killing other PK's who are monsters I look forward to you comments. Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser Edited by - Dak Lozar on 7/24/00 2:21:16 PM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Some people seem to think I hate slaughterfests. I don''t! I just hate it when slaughterfests pretend they''re something more than that! I really like this idea, I only have one question: How are you going to handle players killing PKs? The simple answer would be that it does nothing, but think harder about the statements you''ve already made.

Killing in this world will turn you into a monster. What does that say about killing?

Is killing a "monster" any different? After all,were they not men?

I think the death = transformation thing should stay absolute, even if you kill a "monster". Make it easier to fight without killing, so you can balance out the world a bit.

=====
Are you aware that the people who bring you television actually refer to it openly as "programming?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:

especially want to give thanks to "The Senshi" for his ideal for players becoming monsters with every evil action.



Glad my ideas helped .

quote:

What is a "good" action? This isn''t completely ironed out as of yet, but the following have been mentioned. Quest, helping other players kill monsters, maybe even killing other PK''s who are monsters



Maybe the players could rate actions. For instance, if someone attacks you, you could rate it as a bad action. Or if they heal you, you could rate it as a good action. Of course, you''d need to do a few things to prevent abuse, such as only allowing players to rate one action every 10 minutes, but you get the idea.

Of course, the computer could just be programmed to look for this kind of stuff too. It could just have some predefined "good" and "bad" behaviors that it takes note of. I doubt it would be too hard to program.

Of course, both these systems are somewhat open to abuse, but so is just about everything in a multiplayer game.

Finally, maybe you could just base how monsterish you are off of what others think of you. IE, your reputation with other *players* changes what you look like. The cool thing about this system is that you could do all sorts of criminal acts as long as nobody notices .

----------------------------------------
Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant and she fell on me? Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Freakshow
Killing in this world will turn you into a monster. What does that say about killing?

Is killing a "monster" any different? After all,were they not men?


Freakshow, you have raised a very good question.
Our Karma-like religion will not be exactly as you are thinking.
Killing monsters will be considered a "good thing." Killing other people is a "bad thing."
Monsters, even though they were once men, are still monsters. So, killing a monster who was once a PK is encouraged...



Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, good actions are pretty obvious IMHO. For instance, in Everquest it might include:

- Healing other players in battle
- Giving away items
- Selling things at undervalued prices
- Giving away money
- Completing quests

Almost all of those would be pretty easy to detect.

----------------------------------------
Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant and she fell on me? Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by jaymz
Well we all know what can constitute a bad action, but how do you judge, and keep track of, *good* actions?


Again, as I said... this part isn''t complete as of yet.
We are thinking that quest will be the predominent method of regaining yourself (that sounds cool).
So, if your in this transistion period and are killed by another monster or by a PC, when you are resurected you will be given the opportunity to perform a quest...
Other "good" actions that I listed are helping others kill monsters (easily determined) or just killing monsters (Killing what you are becoming in order to revert to yourself has a good twist to it).

Again, all of the "good" things haven''t been defined, for that matter all of the "bad" things haven''t either



Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:

Freakshow, you have raised a very good question.
Our Karma-like religion will not be exactly as you are thinking.
Killing monsters will be considered a "good thing." Killing other people is a "bad thing."
Monsters, even though they were once men, are still monsters. So, killing a monster who was once a PK is encouraged...



I like that a lot less.

It would be really bold of you to stick to the anti-murder message, and then watch as the world became overrun by monsters, with a small but noble human population doing everything it can to survive. Now that''s a statement.

I would actually structure the story around it! Since you''ve already validated a religion, I would say that things werren''t always this way. The reason that people now become monsters is a kind of "wrath of god" punishment that wasn''t always around! That way you make a great story out of the demonization of an entire society!

And what would make this all truly awesome? Why, not telling the players, of course. Let them think it''s just a standard MMORPG, then throw them this curveball! Heh. You''re not gonna do it, are you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Landfish


I like that a lot less.

It would be really bold of you to stick to the anti-murder message, and then watch as the world became overrun by monsters, with a small but noble human population doing everything it can to survive. Now that's a statement.

I would actually structure the story around it! Since you've already validated a religion, I would say that things werren't always this way. The reason that people now become monsters is a kind of "wrath of god" punishment that wasn't always around! That way you make a great story out of the demonization of an entire society!

And what would make this all truly awesome? Why, not telling the players, of course. Let them think it's just a standard MMORPG, then throw them this curveball! Heh. You're not gonna do it, are you?


Hmmm, Landfish... now why do you want to make me go and reevaluate this?
I can see where you guys are coming from, but the point of all this is to elliminate the need for PK/NONPK zones/servers.
I don't like the segreated servers. It just doesnt seem right, does it to you? I mean where can you go on this planet and be completely safe from other people?
And... if the monster race where to take over... sheesh that could be a mess.
Again, our attempt is to curve or unglamorize the act of PKing.
For another thing (Don't take this the wrong way, because I do belive in God), religions aren't perfect. Remember history...
Our religion is not going to be perfect it is merely a reason why things are the way they are
So, in our religion killing evil is good


Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Edited by - Dak Lozar on July 24, 2000 7:11:02 PM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Landfish

I like that a lot less.

It would be really bold of you to stick to the anti-murder message, and then watch as the world became overrun by monsters, with a small but noble human population doing everything it can to survive. Now that's a statement.

I would actually structure the story around it! Since you've already validated a religion, I would say that things werren't always this way. The reason that people now become monsters is a kind of "wrath of god" punishment that wasn't always around! That way you make a great story out of the demonization of an entire society!

And what would make this all truly awesome? Why, not telling the players, of course. Let them think it's just a standard MMORPG, then throw them this curveball! Heh. You're not gonna do it, are you?


I really like this idea, but I don't think that it could work in any practical sense. The problem is that if you can kill as a monster, but you can't as a good being, then most people will choose to be monsters. In fact, I'm guessing just about everyone will end up being a monster simply because it will be impossible to have fun playing on the other side when your being overrun by hordes of monsters. It would do the exact opposite of what you'd want: it would degenerate basically into a PKing hackfest.

In other words, from a literary standpoint, this seems like a great idea. But from a gameplay standpoint, it's asking for trouble .

----------------------------------------
Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant and she fell on me? Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny.

Edited by - The Senshi on July 24, 2000 7:59:50 PM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I''m playing devil''s advocate, so excuse me picking apart these posts .
I like the idea, and it deserves a lot of thought.

quote:
Original post by The Senshi
Well, good actions are pretty obvious IMHO. For instance, in Everquest it might include:
- Healing other players in battle
[snip]



Healing other players in battle can be an evil act, in context.
If you''re healing a player so he can defeat the Good King, who would otherwise have been strong enough to withstand the assault, for instance. Or assisting ANY player with healing to accomplish murder.

I think I stand with FreakFish here, murder should ALWAYS be bad, nomatter what. There might be grades of bad. ( "I had no choice but to kill that monster, it was in self defense" ), but bad none the less. Make the players DREAD killing something, unless they are sure that there is no alternative.
( "Damn, if I whack that goblin, I might wake up a wererat tomorrow morning." ).




Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by MadKeithV

I think I stand with FreakFish here, murder should ALWAYS be bad, nomatter what. There might be grades of bad. ( "I had no choice but to kill that monster, it was in self defense" ), but bad none the less. Make the players DREAD killing something, unless they are sure that there is no alternative.
( "Damn, if I whack that goblin, I might wake up a wererat tomorrow morning." ).




Are we getting into a philosophicak debate here ?
Becaus I think it''s what you guys are talking about here ? Is killing good or bad, should it be punished, justified ?
Do we follow Deontology (killing is BAD, period), Utilitarianism (if killing help the greater number, then kill) or something else (personaly I love the Karma idea !!!).

Maybe we should have a way to ASK explicitly hte player what kind of guy he wants to be. I mean, why don''t we have some sort of alignment system, that actually is useful. I am thinking something along the lines of ADOM is a good idea for a beginning.
But I''d like to see more of something where, if you want to be a bad guy, then say it clearly at the creation of your character.
If you want to change your alignment, then we should have some sort of criteria. (If an evil guy decide he wants to be after all a paladin, then he would have to prove it FIRST, by having behaved like a paladin for a while, then the alignment switch would take place).

Anyway.

I want to be able to play whatever I want ! Consistency in the role. And some ability to roleplay.

youpla :-P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by MadKeithV

I''m playing devil''s advocate, so excuse me picking apart these posts .
I like the idea, and it deserves a lot of thought.

Healing other players in battle can be an evil act, in context.
If you''re healing a player so he can defeat the Good King, who would otherwise have been strong enough to withstand the assault, for instance. Or assisting ANY player with healing to accomplish murder.


I agree with you on these points... I still think that performing a quest is going to be the primary means of redemption.
quote:

I think I stand with FreakFish here, murder should ALWAYS be bad, nomatter what. There might be grades of bad. ( "I had no choice but to kill that monster, it was in self defense" ), but bad none the less. Make the players DREAD killing something, unless they are sure that there is no alternative.
( "Damn, if I whack that goblin, I might wake up a wererat tomorrow morning." ).


OK, you guys (though I understand your point of view) are missing the point. MMORPGS encompass 3 things: Escapism, Socializing and Fun. Now, if all killing were bad to include monsters... what fun is that? Every RPG out there is designed for the player to become the hero, to perform feats that he can''t do in real life (that''s the escape). Online RPGs are designed to bring players together, to talk and role play (Socializing and Fun). If you make killing monsters a "bad" thing then you have taken some of the escape factor away.

My earlier post spells it out.... religion isn''t perfect. Our made up one is far from it. Killing is bad in pretty much ever religion that I know of and yet, it still happens. But instead of being punished after death, your cursed immediately This doesn''t have to be at the hand of some God, it could be part of the world, a misterious plane that allows magic to exist in our world.

What we are trying to accomplish with this design is to keep everyone in the same game PKs and nonPKs. The PK/nonPK thing is a big issue... (if you don''t belive it, go on over to www.uo2.com and read the latest from their designers) this is the way we are planning to handle it.

Thanks for the comments and keep them coming








Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Dak Lozar

If you make killing monsters a "bad" thing then you have taken some of the escape factor away.




I think you have to be VERY careful there, in the system you are describing.
You have a "karma" system, thereby determining certain things that your world deems are "good", and some that are "bad".
There''s an educational factor here, will your game say "but killing monsters is okay"? What happens if you misbalance, and certain types of players end up turned into monsters when they didn''t deserve it. "Killing deviants is okay"?

I''m not trying to get you to abandon the idea, but be very very careful about it. Making a statement about murder is very dangerous.

( Specially to some of us who still consider the death penalty one of the purest acts of barbarism... )


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
About the educational factor you are talking about, maybe it is a good thing to check what Lionhead has done on the Black&White game (still to come?). This game is based on good & evil actions that you teach your pet creature.

In the first posts, I read that a monster (previously human) killing anyone else (monster or human) would become an even less powerfull monster! That means once you have become a monster there is nothing you can do to become human again?
People who like PK might want to play as monsters. Monsters killing other living creatures might become MORE powerfull monsters... until they will become so powerfull players will be interrested in killing them for XP (new quests?)!

Human kill human --> change (slowly) to monster, -XP
Human kill monster --> XP --> stronger human
Monster kill monster --> ?
Monster kill human --> XP --> stronger monster

But that still leaves the question:
How does a monster player do to change back to human? (redemption, what''s a good action when you are a monster, ...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I''ll sum up some alternatives and their consequences:

1.


Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> bad ( become weaker )
Monster kill human --> good



Now you have two parallel cultures killing eachother, each with their own community. I think this is why they originally suggested to NOT do this.

2.


Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> good
Monster kill human --> bad



Now monsters are loners, fighting amongst themselves. Defending against human assault will only leave them weaker, making being a monster very unattractive. This is the path I think they want to take.


3.


Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> good
Monster kill human --> good



No consequences as a monster. You kill -> you go up. Power playing is supported, but it shows in the character you play. If you play socially, you''re human. If you don''t, you''re a monster. Nothing is stopping you from forming a monster community, but nothing is supporting you either. You''re on your own, but not disadvantaged.




Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by MadKeithV
You have a "karma" system, thereby determining certain things that your world deems are "good", and some that are "bad".
There''s an educational factor here, will your game say "but killing monsters is okay"? What happens if you misbalance, and certain types of players end up turned into monsters when they didn''t deserve it. "Killing deviants is okay"?



The system is/will be "Karma-like." In fact it won''t even be called Karma maybe Daka (sorry Kressilac, couldn''t resist)
I don''t think that the game (or any game of the genre) is or should be used as an educational tool. For one there really aren''t monsters and two... it is fantasy

As for someone turning into a monster when they didn''t deserve it... this will not happen. e.g. If you are attacked by another PC (who is not in the changing period) and instead of him killing you, you happen to kill him in self defence! You are not transformed. You have the right to defend yourself. In fact, I think that if you kill an attacker, maybe you should be allowed to take all of his items... is that justice?





Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by MadKeithV
2.


Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> good
Monster kill human --> bad



Now monsters are loners, fighting amongst themselves. Defending against human assault will only leave them weaker, making being a monster very unattractive. This is the path I think they want to take.



MadKeithV,
That is the point. Becoming a monster isn''t glorious... it is a punishment for killing players. We want you to feel bad, be an outcast.

Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> good (can become human)
Monster kill human --> bad
Monster get killed --> becomes lesser monster



Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I just realised, the system you are proposing will PROMOTE player killing.
Let me run it by you:

People start as humans. Some will be player killers, as always. These will turn into monsters.

Now, after a while you have some humans, and some monsters.
The monsters only have one option to get better: attacking other monsters. This will lead them to become human again. It also leads to the slain monsters becoming weaker.

What are you left with? A world full of a few monster-slaying monsters, a LOT of weak monsters and humans.

There will be nothing to kill but players, and even that is not rewarding...


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by MadKeithV

I just realised, the system you are proposing will PROMOTE player killing.
Let me run it by you:

People start as humans. Some will be player killers, as always. These will turn into monsters.

Now, after a while you have some humans, and some monsters.
The monsters only have one option to get better: attacking other monsters. This will lead them to become human again. It also leads to the slain monsters becoming weaker.

What are you left with? A world full of a few monster-slaying monsters, a LOT of weak monsters and humans.

There will be nothing to kill but players, and even that is not rewarding...

You have brought up some good points... But, I still don''t see how this will promote the killing of players. Are you saying that players will want to become weak beings? If I knew that was the result of me killing another player... I, for one, wouldn''t participate in these kinds of activities.
I may be wrong... don''t know. At any rate, you are giving us more "things" to think about in the design of this system. And that "is a Good Thing"(TM)(SM)






Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites