MMOs - Longevity vs. Tedium

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23 comments, last by dink 20 years, 2 months ago
quote:Your post only serves one purpose - to start a flame war.

Truthfully, digi, it was your post that only served to fan flames that didn''t exist. This was a good thread, until you interjected with a self-admitted rant (your choice of words) about how much you hate mmo''s, copyright laws, greedy developers and mmo "dorks". There was absolutely nothing constructive, or even critically related to the thread, in what you posted. As a MODERATOR (and I did note the emphasis you placed on that title) you should know better.

But I will say I disagree with you completely. MMO''s ARE a market, but the problem is one TRYING to be addressed here in this thread - how to improve them so that people do, in fact, stay beyond the 3-month period. I''m an old MUDder/text rpg/table top gamer; MMOs appeal to me and "my kind" because the idea of playing in a persistent, real-time game world is what we''ve been waiting for. Graphical representations of our rp sessions.

The problem for us is that there is very little room for actual role-playing in these MMOs. They''re designed more with the arcade-style gamer in mind; I don''t think anyone, at this point, knows HOW to build an MMO/persistant game world that WOULD draw the hard-core roleplay crowd. Ultima probably has the biggest following in that regard, but how many of these gamers migrated to the games that came out over the past 2 years?

MMOs are new, relatively speaking. There is plenty of room for growth IF someone can find a way to bring in new markets.


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quote:
Original post by EricTrickster

The problem for us is that there is very little room for actual role-playing in these MMOs. They''re designed more with the arcade-style gamer in mind; I don''t think anyone, at this point, knows HOW to build an MMO/persistant game world that WOULD draw the hard-core roleplay crowd. Ultima probably has the biggest following in that regard, but how many of these gamers migrated to the games that came out over the past 2 years?

MMOs are new, relatively speaking. There is plenty of room for growth IF someone can find a way to bring in new markets


I thought your post was really interesting, and I think it is ironic because the way I''m wanting to go actually narrows that gameplay a bit. . . actually, that''s not fair. It changes the narrow group and fight tough mobs while camping for xp and loot to group seamlessly and fight waves of monsters to complete a game designed group objective. I''m thinking my idea will be more fun than the one currently represented in MMOs right now, but it is still quite narrow.

The idea of giving players the pen-and-paper RPG feel in an MMO is really neat. I''ve not had the opportunity to play in many of these. . . or, to be more precise, I have not found many groups I enjoyed doing this with. However, when I have joined groups that roleplay, the games seem to be heavily centered around characterization and story. The players bring it to the table. When I''ve played with the same people in an MMO, they didn''t bother to voicechat or type the same stuff. Maybe this is because the nature of a videogame is to give you preset rules in an unforgiving game engine, while the nature of a pen-and-paper RPG is to socialize by telling a group story. I''m not sure how a game designer could do this in an MMO. I think that you could do this with a smaller LAN game much more easily and I''ve heard that there is a Vampire:Masquerade game out that does this but I have not played it.

As far as an MMO, I think this will be difficult. I''d love to see story elements enhanced with cut scenes for NPC scripts to bring the story more alive. In fact, I would put a priority on this. Quests should be a diversion and a reward from the normal game system. They should be fun and challenging, but not cryptic. Players should know from the quest details where to go and what to do and the challenge should come in the form of fights or puzzles. Additionally, quests should be accomplishable by every class that is level appropriate for that quest. So many quest designers have upped the difficulty of quests so high that solo players cannot acheive many of them alone unless they play the most deadly fighting class in the game or a class that is capable of heal-tanking. This limits the choices in characters for players who like to solo play and annoys gamers that have to beg help or be the helpers for quests they have already repeated. I''m not saying make all quests easy, but don''t make them artificially difficult. Personally, I am much more happy with a quest that has lots of story and is completable without any frustrations like waiting for drops, long travel times, or the need to put together a group of questers that have not completed the quest yet or who are nice enough to help out.

Anyway, sorry for the divergence from your point. My main point was that I think the dynamics of pen-and-paper RPGs are such that it will be difficult to provide them in an MMO. So much of what makes tabletop RPGs special comes from the players and the game master. I think the trick is to do what all of the MMOs have attempted in giving the players a lot of character choices and ways to roleplay if they choose to do so.

My focus would be on providing the GM side of the tabletop RPG. Great and fun quests with cut scenes and a challenge that does not seem tedious or artificial.
Actually I believe the topic of the post was originally intended for people to voice their opinions on just such a matter. Longevity vs. Tedium can easily be thought of as "good vs. bad" in a broad sense. The thread doesn''t plead for new ideas in MMOs, but lends itself to discussion about general opinions.

The post was even started out with a criticism of MMOs...
quote:Original post by dink

If someone offered me pizza for climbing Mt. Everest, I''d say, "To hell with your pizza!" I''d only climb Mt. Everest if I enjoyed the climbing. . . the pizza at the top would be nice, but the reward is not balanced with the effort in acheiving the goal. This is the problem with MMOs, the experience of gaining experience is not very fun after you''ve done hours upon hours of it, and so the reward at the end becomes unbalanced by the challenge. This is exacerbated by the fact that the challenge does not increase. . . only the time needed to beat the challenge is increased. Character development does not require more skill to obtain. . . just more time.


I, for one, am torn about MMOs. They are tiring in the way that the only real goal is to not fail, not die, not stop. Meanwhile in a traditional game the goal is clear, and every aspect of a good game (almost) leads up to the goal in an intricate, thought out, brilliantly put together manner. MMOs don''t have one story, one goal, or one singular purpose, and are becoming so complex that they are both amazing and daunting at the same time. This leads to the game involving, yes, a lot more time, which is definitely an achievement, and yes, a lot more possibilities and things to see and do... but not necessarily a lot more enjoyment and satisfaction. People do things because there is an end to them. What is the end to an MMO game? honestly.......

forever thinking,
Cosmic One

P.S. this doesn''t mean i don''t hop on the bandwagon every now and then... WoW <- can hardly wait

quote:
Original post by Cosmic One

I, for one, am torn about MMOs. They are tiring in the way that the only real goal is to not fail, not die, not stop. Meanwhile in a traditional game the goal is clear, and every aspect of a good game (almost) leads up to the goal in an intricate, thought out, brilliantly put together manner. MMOs don''t have one story, one goal, or one singular purpose, and are becoming so complex that they are both amazing and daunting at the same time. This leads to the game involving, yes, a lot more time, which is definitely an achievement, and yes, a lot more possibilities and things to see and do... but not necessarily a lot more enjoyment and satisfaction. People do things because there is an end to them. What is the end to an MMO game? honestly.......


That is a GREAT point!!! MMOs are designed to be open-ended. The point is to inhabit and feel part of the world. That''s why I''m focusing on one problem. . . the gameplay. Some games have great replayability and zero story (chess, some FPS games, spades, etc.) The gameplay is what makes them fun.

Some MMOs have added the story. FF XI has the mission system. These quests allow the players to go up in rank and get access to conquest point items through the guard NPCs that issue the quests, but what they really do is tell the central story of the game. The conclusion has not been added yet, but it should come in the form of an expansion. This is actually pretty smart in a financial sense. The story ends in cliffhangers, but with major parts of the game''s story completed, separate acts to one central story. It''s really neat and I think other designers should adopt this ongoing storyline in their products.

However, I''m focusing on gameplay. The leveling grind is a huge design flaw that is repeated over and over in MMOs with little innovation.

As far as the post re: disliking MMOs and doubting their future. That''s fine. I don''t mind his post, but I''m also not going to respond to it very much because I think it is pretty divergent to the real theme of this post: how to improve gameplay in MMOs.
quote:Original post by Nice Coder
With no new tactics to learn, then the game is at its limits, it (the game''s AI) would probable contain something which every once in awhile changes its stategy or implements a new stradegy (only if winnig by so much, as not to cause instantanious loss), if the stradagy is good, then it learns it.


Again, you''re really talking about technology that isn''t invented yet. Computers aren''t currently capable of learning strategies by observation, and you can''t expect to evolve such strategies and tactics unless you were able to describe them in a very rigorous way (such as an algorithm or formula).

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