Well, yeah, I hate replaying tutorials myself. Actually, since we''re on the subject, my favorite tutorial method was in FF7, when in Sector 7, Cloud could teach NPCs how to perform actions. I thought that was nice, because it established how good Cloud was already with this stuff.

Also, single player RPGs aren''t MMORPGs or MUDs. You''re creating an experience for a single person. Theres nothing wrong with starting the game in the story. Theres nothing wrong with helping the player along by giving them EXP bonuses and teaching them how to play. For the replay, have a button that skips it. Or even better, on a New Game+ replay, have the game be a bit more interesting by having those same Miagi tutorial guys offer up a lot more experience and rare items by challenging you to see how well you can handle the system.

quote:One thought that occurs to me is to have the player rewarded with an exp bonus evertime they achomplish a new task.

This has been done for time out of mind.

Forgive me, but it seems to me like you''re way ahead of yourself. You need a world first, and then the quests arise naturally from the richness of the world. i.e. an endless number of interesting quests arise from factional or personal rivalries, or, for that matter, anything else in the world you''ve created.

Other ideas:
In Might and Magic, it is possible to buy something from one merchant, sell it to another, and then buy the seller''s related product. For example, you could buy a crate of fruit, sell it to someone who then sells the juice, and you can take the juice and sell it to someone who will make some sort of alcoholic beverage from it, and then sell that beverage to someone who distills it into a stronger beverage. You make a great deal of money from this.

There''s also the arena idea, where the character (or player) gains experience by practicing in an nonlethal environment.

Exploration can be its own reward. If there''s an overland map like in Fallout of Arcanum, there could be positive events that occur randomly while travelling. For example, merchants who sell rare items or valuable items for cheap.

I don''t know what games you''ve been playing, but I haven''t encountered errands and odd jobs very often in RPGs.

quote:Original post by TechnoGoth
The problem is these generally consist of quests like "exterminate the rats in may basement", "plow my field", "give this to my friend who lives next door", "Find my lost cat". The player has more important things on their mind then running earrands and doing odd jobs, so what can be done instead?

I remember these from Baldur''s Gate on the Playstation. Why oh why am I, an adventurer, jousting with rats in the basement of a tavern with a rusty dagger? My friend and I call our party "broke-ass adventurers incorporated" whenever designers enforce this because we''re too poor to do the stuff we really want to do.

Isn''t the main problem context, though? The tasks that we''re given relate to the insistence most games have at starting us out at level 1. We get killed by bunnies (as in Ultima Online) because we''re too weak to fight anything else. We have to fight rates because we can''t yet fight ogres.

The answer to that one is much more simple: Change the symbolism. If you don''t want to break the mold of "stupid beginning quests educate gamers" consider making the symbolism more significant. Saving a cat or being a pest exterminator is humiliating when you''re supposed to be saving the world. So how do you break up saving the world into small enough constituent compenents so that the beginning tasks--while still making you feel like a fresh faced apprentice--are still important?

Watching a guy trying to steal garbage is one thing. Watching a bank vault is another. The two tasks may be elementally the same, but the symbolism and context is what brings about our interest or dismay.

In games like Champions of Norrath and Armada, the game starts out with an attack on the starting area. You have to defend that area. The enemies may get mopped up by the starting area''s defenders, but you at least have a chance to practice. In the 2nd console Baldur''s Gate game, they start you out as a level 5 resurrected hero, so that you automatically qualify to bash ogres and orcs. This is alot less humiliating than fighting rats with a rusty dagger.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote:Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
You might even implement a "help button" that will respond to whatever just happened, so if you get hit with a two-fingered eye gouge in the Empty Woods of Loneliness, you can push the "WTF!?!?" button and Jimmy the Sprite will come by and teach you all about the Phantasmal Stooges that inhabit the region.

OT, but these have got to be the funniest examples I''ve read in a long time. I''m dying for an RPG-spoof that has all of this!



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Just waiting for the mothership...

Well, I have to agree with Iron Chef Carnage''s assement of the problem. If the player feels that solving every little problem that going on in a town is going to provide a useful reward and leader to something greater then players will do this because they have been trained to.

So instead I''m going to remove quests entirely instead there will be events, both scripted and generated. Generated events will vary but include all those little problems of the local like lost cats and such. These events can resolve themeselves and the rewards for resolving them are generally non existent. So You could rescue the cat but generally its not worth the effort.

As for the tutorial part well that another kettle of fish and one that defently will be optional.

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Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project: Ambitions Slave

quote:Original post by TechnoGoth
These events can resolve themeselves and the rewards for resolving them are generally non existent. So You could rescue the cat but generally its not worth the effort.

Why put them in at all, then, if they don''t affect the game world? Or do they? I''m not saying that you should create a reward, but there should be a consequence one way or another. Otherwise, it should be an ambient animation, which is altogether less effort in design, art, development and debugging.

Consider non-tangible rewards, such as being considered a "nice person" or having your reputation raised in town. At least then it''s not pointless.



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Just waiting for the mothership...

Well, the events will serve to create npc character growth, thus evolving the game world. So Janes cat runs away, the player could find it and return it for a small reward and some appreciation, rasing the settlements sentiment towards you. Or an npc say jack could find it and return it, thus creating a new friendship between jane and jack. Which could later lead to other things.



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Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project: Ambitions Slave

I don''t mind if there are "rescure the cat"-quests in the game, but I''d like to have the choice whether I want to do them. If I''m in a good mood and want to rescure Jane''s cat - why not? It might lead to friendship or whatever...

But I hate to have to do such quests. A RPG can easily be designed to make the player feel less wimpy. Why not investigate the the kidnapping of Jane''s nephew...? Feels a lot more than finding her cat, but is basically the same thing. I agree with Wavinator on this, people start at level 1. In most worlds level 1 should be equal to the "normal guy", and not weaker than a rabbit. It''s a matter of context - and you can easily make tose quests sound more interesting.

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