quote:Original post by MakavelianKode
It's just that, I've always had my own disdain for the "RTFM attitude" as an accquaintance of mine once put it. I think that it's counter-productive for the aforementioned reasons and I think that it doesn't help anyone - at least not more than saying it in a nice way would.

Of course it does. What you have to get past is the notion that the only helpful response to a question is the answer to that question. Look, if someone came to you and asked, "what's the best poison to use to kill myself?" you probably wouldn't answer "well, gosh, strychnine should do the trick". You're much more likely to answer something like "for god's sake don't kill yourself". You've decided that, based on the question, the questioner is misstaken and in the wrong about an issue peripheral to--or more important than--that stated in his question. Likewise, when someone isn't aware that there are multiple build configurations, that means all of his finished projects are being built in the default "Debug" configuration, with the additional slowdown that that entails. Most likely, the questioner is similarly clueless about other aspects of the build process. If you simply answer the question, you've helped him a bit, but by telling him to RTFM/STFW, you've given him a helpful kick in the seat towards getting more information that he may not have realized was important to him. Moreover, you've reminded him that the ability to efficiently find information autonomously is essential for those times when you can't find anyone to help you out.

RTFM is a common phrase on the internet. The swearing it implies is moderate at worst, and most people wouldn't take much offense at it. If you want, you can pretend the 'F' stands for 'Funny'.
"Sneftel is correct, if rather vulgar." --Flarelocke

[edited by - sneftel on March 28, 2004 10:08:18 PM]

Sneftel, I enjoyed your light-hearted post. And again, I really do share a similar view. I do believe in the "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" idea. I just wouldn''t enjoy being cursed at while being taught how to fish. In any case, I suppose I''m taking the swearing in the acronym too strongly - probably much more strongly than is intended by the user of the acronym. So I''ll attempt to be a little more understanding to it.

-Mak
- Learning how to funny fish

quote:Original post by MakavelianKode
...I suppose you could liken the way I look at moderators in the way that students look at teachers. If any of my professors told me to "read the [expletive deleted] manual", I would absolutely do something about it.

Like what?

It''d be an issue in high school, but my college professors (particularly in the arts) cuss all the time. We watch videos with swearing and sex in them in class; nobody''s offended.

It''s a false and juvenile belief that "civil" society equals "victorian etiquette." Being offended, being abrasive and uttering expletives are normal in a community where honesty trumps hubris and where fact is more highly regarded than feeling - like an academic one or a professional guild. People have conflicts and misunderstandings, but what is important is not zeroing in on personality and focusing on principle instead: being able to argue vehemently with someone in public and then head to lunch together like old pals.

I''m as concerned about professionalism on GDNet as you are, and possibly more so. In fact, Tom Miller (principal architect and author of Managed DirectX over at Microsoft) mentioned GameDev.net as one of the places - and the only one mentioned by name - where developers could go to find assistance and resources, so I''m very much concerned that we meet the needs of that audience. I''m just not willing to engage in some pussyfooting in the name of being "professional," because that isn''t.

Olyseui: Just want to say that I understand pretty well why you get frustrated for questions like mine but still remember that people are different..

I´m just pretty usually in that kind of energic mood that I act before I think and don´t remember to check google/search.. And also I usually get very easilly frustrated from seeking info and that makes reading docs/searching much harder task that you could first thought..

I understand that you can force yourself to read like compiler´s doc through just for fun, but I just can´t do that, I get very frustrated and don´t understand a shit what I´m reading if I don´t really have instant need for the info what I´m reading.

So I would just ask you to look this also from this side..

PS. I´m not trying to say I´m right or that you are wrong or anything just want to saying how I feel..

[edited by - Mkk on March 29, 2004 1:49:39 PM]

quote:Original post by Mkk
Olyseui: Just want to say that I understand pretty well why you get frustrated for questions like mine but still remember that people are different..

Yes, they''re also lazy and careless. Laziness and carelessness (in the traditional senses of both terms) are very bad traits for a would-be programmer, and are early indications of future failure. Why do you think the first course in Computer Science is usually hard? To weed out the students who don''t have what it takes.

If you''re not attentive to detail (you butchered my name; you lose points), you''re probably going to be a sloppy/poor programmer.

quote:I´m just pretty usually in that kind of energic mood that I act before I think and don´t remember to check google/search...

And you''re proud of yourself?

"It''s the way I am" is an excuse, not a reason. If you wish to learn anything, ever, you have to be comfortable - and willing - to change based on new information. You have to be able to discipline yourself and overcome your reflexes. Programming languages and compilers - particularly for high-level assembly languages like C and C++ - are very complex, sophisticated and powerful tools. It is negligent to consider using them without proper grounding, but it is the norm here.

quote:And also I usually get very easilly frustrated from seeking info and that makes reading docs/searching much harder task that you could first thought.

Your problem is that you think it should be easier, and I agree - just not with your choice of language. Pick up Python (or BASIC, or Pascal) and learn to program with it. Then migrate to a language like C++ when you''ve acquired fundamentals.

quote:I understand that you can force yourself to read like compiler´s doc through just for fun, but I just can´t do that, I get very frustrated and don´t understand a shit what I´m reading if I don´t really have instant need for the info what I´m reading.

Has it occured to you that you may not be programmer material, then? If you can''t learn to use something properly - and note that these are consumer products like VCRs, so the usability arguments of the "blinking twelve" problem do not apply - maybe you shouldn''t be using it at all?

I understand how you feel, and you''re entitled to feel that way. However, this is serious business. It takes time and effort - effort - to become a competent programmer, much less a competent game programmer. It takes initiative, curiousity, exploration. Not running to a web forum to ask for answers. Do you know how many people can "build an engine" but can''t make a game with it? Do you know why?

Don''t get defensive. Take the opportunity to look critically at yourself and your development habits and see what you can improve. Good luck.

MakavelianKode: I agree with you, I personally think telling someone to RTFM is rather rude if you spell out the meaning, but like most internet slang it has become a term in its own right. Next time you read RTFM read the ''F'' as "furry" or "fuzzy" and you''ll instantly attach less animosity toward the term.

Anyway, I''m rambling and this post is starting to go nowhere so I''m going to close it. It seems like you got some good answers there graveyard filla.