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Make mmorpg Elements/Runes ACCURATE!

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Every game is see (not complaining i like them all lol) is very inaccurate with runes and elements. For example a element does not belong on a rune (Fire Rune, Water Rune) and a rune is not a recall device or a teleporter! lol. I just don''t get how these things can get so mixed up. Elements: These consist of Fire, Earth, Wind, Water, Wood, and Soul. Runes: These consisted of about 24 different characters which are used in magical practises. That are inscribed onto wood of different trees to give different spiritual abilities. These things cannot go together because historically they are nothing even close to each other. Just saying if you are going to make a mmorpg with any of these things stray away from combining them. Make them both seperate. In other words make them Historically Correct!

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any game that uses elements and runes is set in a fantasy world (or at least a fantasy version of the real world), and therefore doesn''t have to be historically correct. as long as it makes sense in the game world, and the player can understand it, why not use runes with the elements? historically speaking, there is no magic anyways...

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This is a bit like arguing that Lord of The Rings is inaccurate because the elves are too tall.

EDIT: besides, "historically speaking", I'm pretty sure you're still wrong.

[edited by - Sandman on May 7, 2004 12:41:12 PM]

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It''s really up to the designers to create the world, if their world has runes belonging to an element, and it fits in the gameplay then there really isnt anything wrong with it.

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Yeah... so, there are only actually four elements historically (five if you include Aristole''s Ether), which would be the first four in your list. Not really sure where you get wood and soul... Second, there were a lot of ancient (and some modern) cultures that used rune based languages including the ancient Celts (25 ogham characters), the egyptians and even modern chinese with thousands on thousands of characters. Basically, your information seems to be quite wrong Now, as to the point of your point, and as the moderator so wisely stated, they''re used in fantasy games and they are convienient tools for the game. If we were to use the elements and runes as nothing more than their historical meanings, our fantasy games would consist of foreign and often complex languages and a mis-informed system of science

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1. Whatever games decide to use is just their decision. Unless they claim it is "historical" or something like that, you may like it or not like it but you have no real ground to correct them.

2. What is considered as "elements" depends on religious and cultural background.

3. Runes have nothing inhenrently to do with magic. They were nothing more than a script. Their magic reputation mainly seems to come from the time when christianity lived side by side with native druidic (and similar) religions. Druids continued to use runes while the mainstream slowly adapted latin letters.

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Fidelity to a specific historical tradition or religion is almost impossible, because it''s very, very difficult to find a metaphysics that concludes that the greatest good for man is to slaugher goblins and orcs. So my advice is to get that big stick out of your butt and enjoy the fiction that surrounds you.

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That isnt what i am saying. It can still be fantasy and the stuff can be blown out of proportion but make it right.
And yes with a bit of research you will find that wood and soul were also counted as elements.

But if you use the Elements (Used by Alchemists) and runes used by vikings and warriors of that era) You could create many great games that make even more logical sense.

Like i said i am not complaining about the other games lol i even pay fees to play them. But it seems like people really don''t understand what these things really are, and are getting the wrong impressions about everything.

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Well, in the context of a game, I think you''re missing what they actually are. In a setting where magic exists, there''s not reason that a rune can''t be an etching bearing magical properties (the rune itself describing the nature of the property, perhaps?). Also, if magic exists and is based on the manipulation of elements (no matter how you define an element), there''s no reason that such effects could not be combined, and described, by magic bearing runes.

What you''re proposing isn''t more ''logical'', nor more ''historical'' (as stated many different ways above, you''ll be hard pressed to find a consistant ''history'' unless you''re basing a game specifically on a certain culture''s history). What you''re proposing is a game world based on a different set of rules and not in any way ''more logical'' than the worlds that already exist. ''Logic'' is based on the environment in which it exists, as such there''s no solid way to define the logic of a magic-enduced environment with what makes sense in our world without magic.

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quote:
Original post by The_Punisher
But it seems like people really don''t understand what these things really are, and are getting the wrong impressions about everything.


How can people fail to understand "what these things really are" when it all depends on your point of view? Switch culture or era and you get a completely different outlook which is no more or less correct.

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I''d like to see the research that puts "wood" and "soul" in the definitive collection of elements. Aristotle used five, and "soul" wasn''t one of them. The systems you''re referring to are outgrowths of sophisticated metaphysical models. Viking runes were as much an alphabet and an astrology as they were a magical language, and most of their magical function has arisen in this century as hippies decide that any historical spirituality is better than what we have.

And now, a little post-modern philosophy.

quote:
"We have become barbarians with respect to those rare moments of high civilization: cities in ruin and enigmatic monuments are spread out before us; we stop before gaping walls; we ask what gods ingabited these epty temples. Great epochs lacked this curiosity, lacked our excessive deference; they ignored their predecessors: the classical period ignored Shakespeare. The decadence of Europe presents an immense spectacle (while spronger periods refrained from such exhibitions), and the nature of this scene is to represent a theater; lacking monuments of our own making, which properly belong to us, we live among crowded scenes. But there is more. Europeans no longer know themselves; they ignore their mixed ancestries and seek a proper role. They lack indivicuality: We can begin to understand the spontaneous historical bent of the nineteenth century: the anemia of its forces and those mixtures that effaced all its individual traits produced the same results as the morifications of asceticism; its inability to create, its absence of artistic words, and its need to rely on past achievements forced it to adopt the base curiosity of plebs."
- Michael Foucault, "Nietzsche, Genealogy, History"
So don''t get too hung up on how they used to do it. Ignore them, and come up with your own system, or build upon what went before you. Don''t be enslaved by the notion of the pure origin, "a metaphysical extension which arises from the belief that things are most precious and essential at the moment of birth" (Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow).

After all, who''s to say that the ideas Aristotle or Paracelsus used to describe their world will work for a world that you are creating? get bent, Punisher. Not only do you incompletely understand the ideas you''re espousing, you would be wrong even if you did.

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a) Many cultures had varying idea's of what the 'elements' were, so no matter what you use as elements (excluding actual elements from the periodic table ), your still going to be inaccurately portraying some culture. In your game-world, you are often creating a new culture, and therefore it is perfectly acceptible to use any belief system you may choose - as long as you maintain consistency within your game-world.

b) There have been many rune-based language systems. Many of these have no relation to magic at all, some of them were used as both language and for magical purposes, and in the minority there were some used exclusively for magic. I believe some cultures did in fact, have elemental runes, and there is absolutely no reason why a fictional culture in a fictional setting (or even a historically based culture in a fictional setting) cant also do this, or use runes for magical purposes in any fashion they may choose to do.

c) If we're being historically accurate, we cant have a recall device or a teleporter in our game at all, as they didnt actually exist to our knowledge. And now we're sacrificing gameplay for historical accuracy...

Thats fine if your game is claiming to be historically accurate, but the games your talking about make no such claims, and therefore may make use of these things with no issues.

//EDIT: Added links.

[edited by - kazgoroth on May 9, 2004 2:42:30 AM]

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quote:
Original post by BitMaster
3. Runes have nothing inhenrently to do with magic. They were nothing more than a script. Their magic reputation mainly seems to come from the time when christianity lived side by side with native druidic (and similar) religions. Druids continued to use runes while the mainstream slowly adapted latin letters.


The Nodic runes (the Furthark script) were supposed given supernatural qualities. Each of them represented something, too. Odin was said to have learned them after he killed himself on Yggdrasil and came back.

Orion

"Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own."
-BRUCE LEE

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"Wood" was a Chinese Element; they also had "Metal"; theirs were Fire, Water, Metal, Wood, and Earth, I think. So they were missing Air. By "Soul" he probably means the Spirit fifth element that was in Hinduism... I forget what it was actually called.. 'prana' or something similar... it was a lot like Aristotle's Ether, and people who like to think there was a grand unified theory of magic elements said they were the same thing.

But yes, there's no "historically accurate" definition of elements or runes, there were lots of cultures with lots of different meanings, and as far as any of us could tell, they were all wrong anyway since their magic spells didn't work nearly as well as the ones in MMORPG's work

[edited by - makeshiftwings on May 11, 2004 6:18:17 PM]

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