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Warsong

Games are for learning...

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Hey that’s what I think and what the original basic element of games were for. I am not saying video games were for that originally since I am talking generally about games, but the original video games needed a lot of skill to go far. Not much profit in games originally as well, but almost every game now seems to be. You learn to by improving your skills like running faster in track, or lifting more in bodybuilding, or throwing further in javelin, etc. which were important skills for life. Now you have people learning how to steal a car and run away form a crime seen. Swinging your sword or shooting against zombies and monsters (we have to be prepared for zombies one day lol) Or RTS games so that one day when there is a post apocalyptic war we know how to be generals. And let’s not forget Sports video game how they can teach you how to plan and organize a team since so many that play will one day be college coach’s. (hmm woody Allen had a saying like those that know do, those that don''t teach, those that don''t teach become gym teachers) Well not really, but they can provide some hidden information right, but most do not. But some games like Tetris, historical games, or some Sims that are favored by women seem to be a more logical choice. Not that all women choose better games than men but many mature women care for something of substance. They choose guys mostly for what’s inside more then a man does which chooses what looks good. You notice how games with good graphics appeal to guys more? People act too stressed out since the slightest thing bothers them, since they do not take the time to challenge themselves or understand certain things to make life easier. When life has its down they don’t know how to handle things and not just mess up themselves but others. Gummers and designers have to challenge themselves. If they want to be average and not put any meaning in the game then how far will the players go? You should not settle for being the norm to have the normal IQ or the normal debts to pay like the normal average family. Look at Bill Gates how some kids go to regular camp to learn how to build a fire out of 2 sticks and blow smoke signals, while Bill Gates went to reading camp that they were competing how many books they can read. Obviously bill seems to be the odd one to the majority since he wasn’t doing the "normal" things. But when both grow up the same thing happen by Bill reading and having fun doing so, and others knowing how to heat up 2 sticks to warm their home and blow smoke with their cigars and being the "normal" person. The point is the more you try the more you can get. Here is the site I posted like 4 times within the past 2 years already which no one seems to remember or know about which says some good info but many will dispute it to justify their interests. Hey I am not against people having fun but have a positive meaning to it. Even some so called musicians say they can’t since and it’s a hustle which they put their ideologies in the game to make it have a meaning. If games do not that a meaning then it’s standing on one leg. http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/fac/peabody/game-book/Chapter2.html "We are right on the first count: these cubs do indeed appear to be playing a kind of game. We can certainly see in their behavior all four of the fundamental game attributes described in Chapter 1: representation, interaction, conflict, and safety. We may be right on the second count; who knows if lions can have fun? But we are dead wrong on the last count. These cubs are not carefree. They do not indulge in games to while away the years of their cubhood. These games are deadly serious business. They are studying the skills of hunting, the skills of survival. They are learning how to approach their prey without being seen, how to pounce, and how to grapple with and dispatch prey without being injured. They are learning by doing, but in a safe way. Better to make mistakes with butterfly and sibling than with the horns of the wildebeest." More info on the site Freedom for a barbarian is to want to see violence. To glorify and show violence to a civilized person is to take away their freedom. Ela Reenie etho na Yelas "Profanity is for those who lack intelligence and imagination to otherwise express them selves." "You are what you repeatedly do; Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle

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quote:
Look at Bill Gates how some kids go to regular camp to learn how to build a fire out of 2 sticks and blow smoke signals, while Bill Gates went to reading camp that they were competing how many books they can read. Obviously bill seems to be the odd one to the majority since he wasn’t doing the "normal" things. But when both grow up the same thing happen by Bill reading and having fun doing so, and others knowing how to heat up 2 sticks to warm their home and blow smoke with their cigars and being the "normal" person.
I don''t think you realize that he hated everything that included words, the only thing he liked to look at was $. Anyways I do agree that games are getting a bit stupid, but that''s what sells, I''m sorry that I''m the one that has to tell you this but games that include education so far, that I''ve seen so far (from my friend''s sister ) were reader rabbit and that game isn''t doing so well, but if you just wanted to build a game just to see if it sells, you can go ahead...

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Also this brings up another point, you know the IKEA owner, some swedish person, he thought of making of a walmart type of store with swedish flavor and having a greater variety then there are cheeses. But this guy wasn''t normal just like you and I, if you think everyone is ''normal'' than tell me, what would a ''normal'' kid be? I don''t think you can define that unless
#define KID NORMAL 
would do it for you . anyways back to the IKEA dude, sry I forgot his name, was normal just like the walmart and kmart owners... except he was the more popular one.

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quote:
Original post by snyp
...anyways back to the IKEA dude, sry I forgot his name...


OT: It's Ingvar Kamprad, which also makes up the first two letters of the acronym IKEA. Forgot what EA stands for though.

-Luctus
..I'm also moronophobic
[Mail]


[edited by - Luctus on May 17, 2004 10:03:24 PM]

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>Hey that’s what I think and what the original basic element of >games were for. I am not saying video games were for that >originally since I am talking generally about games, but the >original video games needed a lot of skill to go far.

I think games are about fun, agreeing with the general consensus. Yes, you have to learn interface mechanics and game world rules etc. Youre a "Chris Crawford" devotee? hehe.


>Not much profit in games originally as well, but almost every >game now seems to be.

They were million selling games in 1984. Depends on your ideas of what "much profit" is i guess.

>You learn to by improving your skills like running faster in >track, or lifting more in bodybuilding, or throwing further in >javelin, etc. which were important skills for life.

Ok. thats fine for life. I play games cause I like to fanatasize. To be a galactic space trader on quests across systems dog fighting space pirates. Or whatever.

>Now you have people learning how to steal a car and run away >form a crime seen. Swinging your sword or shooting against >zombies and monsters (we have to be prepared for zombies one >day lol)

Yes, I''ve heard it said by ppl in the industry that they dont like a lot of modern games cause they still appeal to our most basic not-so-noble instincts.

>Or RTS games so that one day when there is a post apocalyptic >war we know how to be generals.

rofl.

>And let’s not forget Sports video game how they can teach you >how to plan and organize a team since so many that play will >one day be college coach’s.

hehe.

>(hmm woody Allen had a saying like those that know do, those >that don''t teach, those that don''t teach become gym teachers)

I would disagree. I''ve met some very capable teachers.

>But some games like Tetris, historical games, or some Sims >that are favored by women seem to be a more logical choice. >Not that all women choose better games than men but many >mature women care for something of substance.

Well, a large amount of big commercial games are aimed at younger male teenagers up to adults.
In my opinion, women seem to like games with more complex social interactions, some have told me they like mystery solving adventures, and of course cute and interesting creatures, amongst probably many other game types and features.

>They choose guys mostly for what’s inside more then a man does >which chooses what looks good.

If men are wise, they''ll take that idea into consideration too.

>You notice how games with good graphics appeal to guys more?

Yes. Men are more visually-oriented.(supposedly)

>People act too stressed out since the slightest thing bothers >them, since they do not take the time to challenge themselves >or understand certain things to make life easier.

Moern life is stressful. Many ppl cant be bothered with technology. For good or bad? It''s debatable. There''s down-sides to technology. Its not all roses. Many ppl just want to know the ''on'' switch, the channel change and volume control.

>When life has its down they don’t know how to handle things >and not just mess up themselves but others.

Yes, tis true. You learn to handle things with age though.

>Gummers and designers have to challenge themselves. If they >want to be average and not put any meaning in the game then >how far will the players go?

Good point. I get sick of run-of-the-mill, non-innovative games. But there''s more to a games appeal than just this.
Like how well it''s been implemented etc.

>u should not settle for being the norm to have the normal IQ

IQ seems to be hereditary. I''m not sure if you can do much to significantly improve the situation. But I understand your point. If you want to better yourself, then by all means go do it.

>or the normal debts to pay like the normal average family.

I''m sure every family has money issues.

>Look at Bill Gates how some kids go to regular camp to learn >how to build a fire out of 2 sticks and blow smoke signals, >while Bill Gates went to reading camp that they were competing >how many books they can read. Obviously bill seems to be the >odd one to the majority since he wasn’t doing the "normal" >things. But when both grow up the same thing happen by Bill >reading and having fun doing so, and others knowing how to >heat up 2 sticks to warm their home and blow smoke with their >cigars and being the "normal" person.

Yeah, Bill wanted to improve himself, and he gave everyone else the finger who criticized him for it? (I''m not sure of this, but you gotta do it sometimes)

>The point is the more you try the more you can get.

The point is to simply *try*.

>If games do not that a meaning then it’s standing on one leg.

Well, all games have "meaning".

"We are right on the first count: these cubs do indeed appear to be playing a kind of game. We can certainly see in their behavior all four of the fundamental game attributes described in Chapter 1: representation, interaction, conflict, and safety. We may be right on the second count; who knows if lions can have fun? But we are dead wrong on the last count. These cubs are not carefree. They do not indulge in games to while away the years of their cubhood. These games are deadly serious business. They are studying the skills of hunting, the skills of survival. They are learning how to approach their prey without being seen, how to pounce, and how to grapple with and dispatch prey without being injured. They are learning by doing, but in a safe way. Better to make mistakes with butterfly and sibling than with the horns of the wildebeest."

Ok, "The art of game design". I see you read good books.

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For young creature of any kind, games are the way they learn. For older people games are like a bubble of fresh air in a poluted enviroment.

I think that more games that teach you things you will use in life are needed... but those ''meaningless'' games should exist too. I have just 2 games on my computer. One if big and complex, the other one has lots of replay value and it''s small and even silly. Most of the time I play the first but sometimes I just want to forget about existance and play the second...

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Well, just because a game doesn''t read "OMFG! EDUCATIONAL! SCHOOLS PLEASE BUY ME" on the cover doesn''t mean they don''t contain any stuff worth learning.

I''d prefer that my kid would learn about acient civiisations trough Age of Empires rather than not learning at all.

Granted, most games don''t go very in-depth on the themes (term used loosely) they cover, but at least they can fuel the player''s interest towards the subject.

I guess it depends what ''educational'' means to you.

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Well that didn’t get a lot of replied, or have many understood it and scrapping their old designs and making better games.

Snyp
Even bill gates says he likes to read every week for hours, but I do agree with your other point about money in a way. Games do not have to be called educational. Some say that educational games do sell well but they are not in the mainstream to be talked about. As for the game you mentioned like reading rabbits those are for kids and not for adults in the contexts of what they teach. Just because a game is popular does not mean it sells well that some unknown games. For instance the game Deer hunter is one of the top pc games sold of all time they said on the news since it is cheap and simple for everyone to play. As for normal it means the norm of society so the norm is to be middle class so would that make the rich not the norm? Also just because something is the norm doesn’t mean it is right since those two words normal and right are different.

Blain32
I wasn’t talking about video games I was generally talking about physical games. But in any business people want to do what they know works and do not want to take a risk in doing something original. Originality does not sell well since you have to show it off more than a well known game that has a following in a way. It is ok to want a game for fun and pretend you are a space trader like you say but have some thing meaningful without calling it educational. As for teachers some choose to be which is good, but many do not. As for women I was talking about the mature ones. Not all games have a lot of meaning every games does have a little but not enough to be meaningful for life and after the games ends. As for the rest you said I agree and it is not far off in what I originally said.

Coz
Yeah I know what you mean and the other game could be more too to have subconscious meaning for you to learn. You even say you sometimes want to forget about existence, but if you played games that gave you more information and help you learn that would help out your life better so you would not think about forgetting about not existence. You know?

Xmcbainx
Games do not have to say its “educational”, they can just be games that have “educational”. If sim city w2as more advanced would it be on the educational category in the store? It is still a game but with more indeapth for people to understand. Is the came Carmen Santiago and educational game even though it teaches people about world map? Or how about that playstation2 game that someone mentioned here called Dynasty Warriors 3 how the game is not made up but uses actual people from history and story to make the game have more of a meaning and fun than most games.


I know that many people do not want to do what is “good” and what is “right” and find it cool to do what is “bad” in a way and show they are “rebels”. It seems that games have to advance more to not just use architects to do level design lately but to use psychiatrists, teachers, and other professions to make something compelling, fun, and meaningful. Don''t try to achieve a quick buck since that''s you can accomplish more than that for yourself and help others.

Freedom for a barbarian is to want to see violence. To glorify and show violence to a civilized person is to take away their freedom. Ela Reenie etho na Yelas "Profanity is for those who lack intelligence and imagination to otherwise express them selves." "You are what you repeatedly do; Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle

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I''m extremely interested in developing quality educational video games. Edutainment has been around for ages, but the use of modern video games as instructional tools is just now starting to gain acceptance and momentum. I eagerly seek any opportunity to learn more about teaching through video games.

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Ok. The point trying to be made is "make games that the players can take away something useful to them in life."

I feel that making games that simply promote an individual to think and solve problems for themselves is useful in itself.
In fact, it could be the most important thing you learn in life, depending on what you believe possibly.

Ie, promote thinking of better solutions than violence or the like.

Later
Blain

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quote:
Original post by Warsong
if you played games that gave you more information and help you learn that would help out your life better so you would not think about forgetting about not existence. You know?



Just two things, when I play mindless games it''s not because life sucks but because I''m tired!(when life sucks I get depressed and do naughty stuff, so no games there ) and also, there will always be someone who has a sucky life and needs a mindless game

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