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badsector

Using opensource 3d engines for your games

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badsector    184
As many others here, i have a (actually more than one but...) game in my mind which i plan to make it reality. However knowing myself and knowing the fact that if it will take me lots of months to write a good 3d engine, i thought to use a 3rd party engine. Unfortunatelly my budget is *very* low, so i can''t license those $1000, $10000 and any other abs(x)*10+$1000 costing engines around. The other option is to use an opensource 3d engine. Publishing my sourcecode isn''t a big deal for me (i appreciate the existance of opensource programs anyway) so i can live with it. However i have some questions/triggers_for_discussion: a) Are there any good opensource engines around? I remember an engine list site (M.E.L.) mentioned some days ago in here, but the search system returns "no matches" found (always). Where is that list? b) If i use GPL or LGPL (most famous), can i release my datafiles under a different license? Releasing sourcecode won''t harm me, but releasing datafiles will :-) I''ve played a bit (=some hours) with the Quake1 source code (GPL) but i think that it''s a bit outdated (i think the source code dates back to 1997 or 98 - it has some little improvements over the original GLQuake). I believe that i can add some "missing" features such as better particles and better materials (f.e. shaders), but is worth? What do you think about this?

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Monder    993
quote:
If i use GPL or LGPL (most famous), can i release my datafiles under a different license? Releasing sourcecode won''t harm me, but releasing datafiles will :-)


Well with the GPL licence (which I believe you find most open source 3d engines licenced under) you will have to release any modifcations you make to the engine (which will include your game code). It doesn''t apply to stuff you create though so you can sell a copy of your game with the data files and you won''t have to put them up for download. You''d only have to release the source.

The LGPL is a bit different. I''m not entirely sure but I think that with LGPL if you dynamically link with whatever is under the LGPL (i.e. it''s in a DLL and your program uses that DLL) then you do not have to release the source. This isn''t the case with the GPL.

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badsector    184
I was a bit uninformative in my first post. The question should be "Are there any good opensource game engines around? ...".

OGRE is nice, but not a game engine :-). I''ll look more at it if i won''t find any game engine (i still have Quake1 in my mind...).

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SpreeTree    396
The Yake Engine (http://yake.sourceforge.net/) is a game engine. It uses Ogre for the rendering.
I have never used it myself, and from what i can see it is still in the early stages of development, but might be worth a look

Spree

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
The Torque engine is available for $100 per programmer, so it''s kind of somewhere between free and expensive. It''s been used for real successful games, so that might be a bit of a plus over the open source engines that have yet to be used in a major commercial game.

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badsector    184
I played more with Q1 sources and i found the code easy to modify. In one night i added simple shadows (it had shadow support but it was ruined by bugs and was disabled by default - i just fixed most of them) and rewrote the part that renders the particles in order to be more natural (point particles doesn't look good anymore :->).

I'll work with that one until i find a better engine. There are very good engines (and a lot better than Q1's) but most of them lacks something essential (f.e. sound, a map format, tools or something...).


@simhau:
Wow, i was thinking that the 3d engines list was died! Thanks for the link :-)

@Anonymous Poster:
Quake1/2 engines have been used :-)
Okay, the fact that there are no known games that uses opensource engines means nothing. Fame is a matter of marketing and *many* good games remain unknown because of poor marketing.

@Clueless:
Yea, Neoengine seems very good. However, as you said, audio is not there and i wasn't actually able to find a list with the features the engine has (looked at the docs at the site and made a search for 'features' but found nothing).



[edited by - badsector on May 28, 2004 12:37:24 PM]

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Raptor85    180
commercial games made with the genesis3d opensource engine

FDNY FIREFIGHTER: AMERICAN HERO
dragon''s layer 3d
Barbie Gotta Groove

what''s really funny is that these are the WORST games made with the genesis3d engine, all the good ones never went commercial

___________________
-Nicholas Anton, Owner RaptorTech
-Admin(at)Raptor85.com

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by badsector
I played more with Q1 sources and i found the code easy to modify. In one night i added simple shadows (it had shadow support but it was ruined by bugs and was disabled by default - i just fixed most of them) and rewrote the part that renders the particles in order to be more natural (point particles doesn''t look good anymore :->.



I thought that you could still be liable for licencing fees even for quake 1, at least if you don''t release under an OSS license.

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badsector    184
I made some modifications to the Quake 1 engine and i''m going to release it for testing. I took a part of Quake1''s source code (namenly the Windows and the Linux/X11 OpenGL part) which, compressed is around 700KB. I think that a download which is around 800KB is not a problem - so i''ll be GPL-correct since my release will include the modified source code that is required to build BSQuake -btw, original name for my mod engine, don''t you think :->>>


@AP:
Quake1''s source code is licensed under the terms of GNU GPL, which says that you can it for commercial purposes, as long as you release the source code. It says so in the GPL and in the readme file written by J. Carmack that comes with the source code (he actually suggests for commercial usages to use the GPLd engine instead of licensing a closed-source version).

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PouyaCatnip    152
Uh, if you''re happy using Quake 1 engine, why not switch to Quake 2? IIRC the source is released under the same license, and the actual structure is nigh on identical (at least from a modding point of view). Coloured lighting and a proper OpenGL renderer alone would be enough to convince me to switch.

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haro    502
The Irrlicht engine is released under the zlib license - essentially meaning you can do whatever you want with it. The license does not even require you mention you used the engine if you created a closed source commercial game with it, however that would be rather lame.

As far as quality I cannot comment much. I have been using it as a learning tool and it seems well designed and efficient. If it matters to you, it is cross platform.

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badsector    184
@PouyaCatnip:
It''s real that Quake2 has some stuff that would convice me to use it (yes i have Q2''s sources too). I saw the sourcecode of Q2 and it seems to be a little more structured. However it seems to be a little more... more.

Quake1 has a proper (define ''proper'' however :-) OpenGL renderer. To be precise, i use only the OpenGL code and i throwed away the software and the 3DFX code.

Better lighting (colored lights, dark lights, etc) is a plus (and some other extensions that Quake2 has over Quake1), but is a matter of 1-2 daywork to make Quake1 support colored lights and it already has dark lights (you just have to remove a #ifdef QUAKE2...).

Lastly Quake1 seems very simple.

However Quake2 has lots of tools floating around the internet and is considered more "famous" in general. Half-Life made this :-). Unfortunatelly HL is not that binary-compatible with Q2 and Q2''s tools aren''t under GPL :-/.

I don''t know, i''ll give a shot to Quake2 too. Unfortunatelly, however, i do not have Quake2''s datafiles so i''ll have to dig through my 1998 magazine CDs in order to find a shareware (downloading it is not an option due to bandwidth, time and storage space limitations :-).

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badsector    184
Irrlicht is a *very* good and a *very* easy 3D engine. Unfortunatelly is just that: a 3d engine.

While i could use OpenAL for sound, my NerveBreak scripting engine for scripting and other stuff, i''ll still have to invest time on reinventing the wheel in a case where time matters.

And again, i don''t have the required datafiles for creating content for irrlicht (namenly Quake3 datafiles for making .bsp maps).

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badsector    184
I know tenebrae and the problem with that engine is that it''s too "up to date". Actually it''s "oldness" is a negative number (looks to the future). I have a AMD64 3200+, GeForceFX 5950Ultra, 512MB Ram, etc and even with this computer the average framerate is around 15-20fps (choppy).

My prelastnight work: http://bsqme.bsector.cjb.net/
I spent lastnight trying to fix a bug with the Linux version. It seems that KDE doesn''t send correct events to GLQuake. When i run GLQuake alone or under TWM everything is ok (GNOME not tested since i don''t have it).

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IFASS    145
i''d go for the NeoEngine, it''s a good and fast game-engine.

it''s now on 0.8.1 and it will be finished this year.

OpenFrag is using this engine too, if you decide to use this one, they could help you with problems you might get with it. Within a week the 4th OpenFrag TechDemo will be released, so if you are interested, take a look at it.

links:
OpenFrag: http://www.openfrag.org
NeoEngine: http://www.neoengine.org
ODE (physics) http://www.ode.org
FMOD (sound) http://www.fmod.org

open-sourced fraggin'' - www.openfrag.org

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
IMO, use a glp source and make your game. You should not worry about it, since your art and ideia will belong to YOU! Then it doesnt matter if engine is public etc etc. And its healthy, check linux! More and more people work together to make something even better.
I think nobody here has the last name carmack.So, release your code, sell the art and ideia, and somebody else can make an even better game using your work. Then he releases a better and so on...

Someday we will break the iD!!! bwehahahahaaha X)

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mhamlin    520
quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
IMO, use a glp source and make your game. You should not worry about it, since your art and ideia will belong to YOU! Then it doesnt matter if engine is public etc etc. And its healthy, check linux! More and more people work together to make something even better.
I think nobody here has the last name carmack.So, release your code, sell the art and ideia, and somebody else can make an even better game using your work. Then he releases a better and so on...

Someday we will break the iD!!! bwehahahahaaha X)


Wow. For one, there's a big difference between an operating system and a game. The analogy with linux is not a fair one. With game source, people can more easily hack/cheat your game.

I don't worship Carmack, or hold him up as a god, or anything; but why pick on him? He's in favor of sharing source (he has released his Quake 1, Quake 2, Doom source, hasn't he?), he just has to make a buck. Thus, he can't release his newest, greatest, and least legible code.

[edited by - MikeMJH on May 30, 2004 8:51:54 PM]

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Clueless    185
The anonymous guy has a point. And IFASS too.
Just write a sound module for NeoEngine and make it public!
:-p

There is an optional DirectSound module afaik.
I guess it should be possible to base a new module on that one!?

It sounds to me as if NeoEngine is Low Level AND up to date enough for your needs.
Maybe you can use a sound library that does not depend on NeoEngine!?
Improving Quake 1 sounds a lot harder IMO.

Btw: "No page to display" ( http://bsqme.bsector.cjb.net/ )
Am I the only one who can''t see it?

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IFASS    145
as mentioned already in my post (maybe not clear enough) you could use the FMOD in combination with NeoEngine, OpenFrag uses it too, and i must say, the sound is amazing.

for networking, we use the OpenTNL (www.opentnl.org) it''s a award winning networking engine, known from the Tribes serie.
If you want to see this 2 engines working with the NeoEngine, for the FMOD you can take a look at the TechDemo 4 and for the Networking engine, that will be available in the 5th TD.

However, if you decide to use the NE, oF is always willing to help you and the support from the NE is also very good.

Good luck with your search

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