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i heed help programming!!!!!!! badly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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ok hey im totally new to game developement ive wanted to do it for soo long.. but i dont know where to start im guessing programming but i dont know.. please tell me where to start and give me some resources i can use to gain some knowledge of it like compilers modelers and stuff if u ahve aim zero or die2999

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If you want to start learning programming I''d recomend learning Python. It''s a powerful language that you can do a lot in. The code written in isn''t going to be as fast as code written in say C++ (which I would recomend staying away from until you actually know how to program in an easier language such as Python), however maximum speed is not what you need when learning to program. You need a language which takes care of the low level details and allows you to focus on the principles of programming.

How to think like a computer scientist may be a good book to read (it''s free to download online) to learn Python.

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I don't know why people even bother to use "Python".
I don't know how can you people ewen begin writeing somthing in phyton when you know that in c/c++ you can write it about 12 times more efficiently!
And not only do you write code that is slow, you are adviceing other people to do it ???
My opinion is C++ & Assembler - once you got these two under your belt nothing in game dedvelopment will be more than an add on to your kwnolidge!
If you learn somthing like Python you will get the principals of the lanuge (Syntax) and then wen switching to C/C++ you will hawe a hard time adapting to changes!
Well I am not saying Python is usles - yust it has no use in game deevelopment where every frame counts (evry wasted procesor cycle )
There is a lots of good links on the net buth the best woud be the nehe.gamedev.net, OpenGL.org(noth for beginers buth tehnical info ) & Microsoft DX SDK.
If you already know programing I woud recomend to start reading tutorials on gamedev.net becouse they are writen in style only for people who know the C/C++.(most of them)
If you hawe no expiriance with C/C++ you shoud read NEHE pdf becouse it teaches you C/C++ and the OpenGL - the tutorials asume that you know how to link files to your compiler and som esentials of C (even that is explaind).

P.S.
Sory about gramatical errors

[edited by - Red Drake on May 31, 2004 3:28:54 PM]

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The point is not how fast the code will run, but how long it takes you to write it. In 99% of the cases the speed of the code doesn''t matter, development time always matters.

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When beginning programming the speed at which your programs run should not be a concern (as I stated above). Sure highly optimised C++ is probably gonna beat Python but Python is perfectly adequete for writing 2D games (i.e. what a beginner may write). Using Python also means you do not have to worry about any low level details and do not have to deal with what can be baffling and highly confusing syntax (for example that of C++).

quote:
My opinion is C++ & Assembler - once you got these two under your belt nothing in game dedvelopment will be more than an add on to your kwnolidge!


Programming languages are nothing but tools and you should always pick the right tool for the job. C++ with ASM is in no way some 'holy trinity' of languages that are perfectly suited to solving every problem and for every job you may want to do as you seem to suggest. To be a good programmer you don't need to know whatever language is currently most popular you need to know the concepts, concepts which will be the same in many different languages despite different syntaxes. Learning a programming language is just something you need to do in order to make a game, but it is one of many things you must learn. More important than the languages you learn is an understanding of fundamental algorithms, data structures and the concepts of programming. Once you have a firm grasp of these topics you should be able to learn just about any programming language which you care to learn with relative ease and thus choose the right one for the job.

In the case of learning the right tool for the job is a relatively simple language that encourages good structure, has simple syntax and hides away details that need not concern a beginner programmer. Python can be considered as a good tool for this job.

[edited by - Monder on May 31, 2004 3:50:53 PM]

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Monder thank you for suggesting python script x along with how to think like a computer scientist. I just finished chapters 1-3 in a little less then an hour, and in the 4 days it took me to do the first 3 chapters of C++ it has given me an understanding of what C++ was saying. Python goes alot more in depth but gives better comparisons for learning, C++ is way to dry for a beginner like myslef. Thanks again.

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quote:
Original post by Monder
C++ with ASM is in no way some ''holy trinity'' of languages that are perfectly suited to solving every problem and for every job you may want to do as you seem to suggest.

I agree; "trinity" implies three members. You''d have to add machine code to complete it.

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quote:
I agree; "trinity" implies three members. You''d have to add machine code to complete it.


/me looks up trinity in the dictionary

So it does, well it''s pretty irrelvant anyway, it still doesn''t change the fact C++ and ASM aren''t the ultimate programming languages perfectly suited to every job.

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I just wanted to say how little I expected from this thread. I was pleasantly suprised to find all the answers and resources I needed for my own adventure in C++. Going to read C++ Primer plus then start perusing through the links. Thanks everyone.

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Good choice TheSimplerOne, I recently got the same book ^^

At about chapter 7 I just stopped doing the practice questions as I was getting kind of bored of them, so I recommend you only do a few from each chapter. You really don''t need to know how to do most of the stuff they ask. Also, most of chapter 8 (I think) is irrelevant to game programming. On chapter 10 right now, which is the first chapter on classes! *giddy feeling*

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quote:
Original post by Ceoddyn
Also, most of chapter 8 (I think) is irrelevant to game programming.


Chapter 8 is adventures in functions which goes over function templates and function overloading. Two important concepts in game programming.

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I fail to see how functions templates and overloading is an important concept of game programming. C did not have function templates, or function overloading, and most commercial games were written in it. Not too sure if it still is the case tough. The point is, you sure can program games without them since most language do not have them anyway.

They can be used in game programming however, ad learning them won''t hurt anyone.

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You can program games without classes too, you know Just because you don''t have to use something doesn''t mean that it won''t help you.

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Is it possible to write a game of the style and scale of Monkey Island 1 with Python?
And what is a normal game engine built of? (which language)

Sorry for these very fundamental questions but I am new to game programming, too!

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quote:

If you learn somthing like Python you will get the principals of the lanuge (Syntax) and then wen switching to C/C++ you will hawe a hard time adapting to changes!
Well I am not saying Python is usles - yust it has no use in game deevelopment where every frame counts (evry wasted procesor cycle )


Maybe 20 years ago this might''ve been true, but processors are so powerful these days that you don''t need to waste time optimising all your code. If you write all of the code that doesn''t need to be optimized in a more productive language, such as python, and delegate all of the processor intensive stuff to external C code, then you''re set.

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quote:

Is it possible to write a game of the style and scale of Monkey Island 1 with Python?
And what is a normal game engine built of? (which language)



Python is perfectly capable of being used to write a Monkey Island clone. You'd probably want to use PyGame which a libary for python designed for making 2D games. As for what a normal engine is written in it depends on what you define as a normal engine. C and C++ are used a lot throughout the industry, but that is no reason to learning programming using either of those languages. Remember the first langauge you learn doesn't have to be the only language you learn, it's far more important that you learn good coding style and practices early on rather than learning whatever the most popular language is. Also with a language such as Python you'll probably find it far easier to get started with and you'll be doing interesting stuff (i.e. making games) earlier. With C or C++ you're likely to get very frustrated when dealing with the complexities that arise and thus either loose interest in programming or spend far longer making games you want to make.

quote:
Original post by neurokaotix
quote:
Original post by twanvl
The point is not how fast the code will run, but how long it takes you to write it. In 99% of the cases the speed of the code doesn't matter, development time always matters.


That 1% remainder being game development

MindEngine Development | E-Commerce Business Architecture


Not really, only people writing high performance game engines need maximum speed. More and more games are using engine licences so developers can concentrate on the game rather than the technology and when you're using a licenced engine you don't really have to worry about code speed so much as all the speed critical parts of the game will be inside the engine where you don't have to worry about them.

[edited by - Monder on June 1, 2004 3:12:41 PM]

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"Also with a language such as Python you'll probably find it far easier to get started with and you'll be doing interesting stuff (i.e. making games) earlier. With C or C++ you're likely to get very frustrated when dealing with the complexities that arise and thus either loose interest in programming or spend far longer making games you want to make."
I am afraid that this is probably trouth. I mean when I started to learn Game Developing i used Visual Basic (5) & DX 3D (8) and it was about 5 months ago.
I did not knew any C/C++ back then and all (most) of the tutorials on the net where for C++.
Then I borowed a book in library about C - and I learnd even less than I did before (the book was confuzing me).
Then I started the internet tutorials and realized that VB vas not that diferent from C/C++.

The "only" mayor diference betven VB,Python .. & C/C++ are POINTERS.

Buth now that I learnd them they are esential for every code that I write. I use function/variables pointers in almost every source file.
Why?
Function pointers are extreamly good to make your game cros platform - cros API.
Variable pointers are extreamly usefull for pasing parameters to functions (speed , Memory saveing ... )
So conclusion is learn what you like buth think of these things that I said so you woud not lose any time.

P.S.

"Maybe 20 years ago this might've been true, but processors are so powerful these days that you don't need to waste time optimising all your code. If you write all of the code that doesn't need to be optimized in a more productive language, such as python, and delegate all of the processor intensive stuff to external C code, then you're set."

This is an wery unproductive way of developing
It's like you are building a somthing and you know at the begining that you can make it beter but you won't becouse you are lazy (I don't know if i write it corectly - non workning pearson )

[edited by - Red Drake on June 1, 2004 4:18:56 PM]

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I consider it highly probable that anyone with a computer less than a year old will be able to run any one program quite sufficiently, so why all the care about speed? I say waste em cycles and make funner games!

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Actually, I suppose that its worth taking the time to back up my claims here.

Suppose that there are 100000 interested buyers in your game.
If you reduce the work of writing your game by even 10%, by writing easier to read code or using a slower but more powerful language, then you save the costs of programmers by 10% roughly.

At $40000 a year for oh lets say just 5 programmers, thats $20000.
Now lets say that only 50000 people want your game since it runs 10% slower than before and cuts out some of the older gamer''s computers. 50000 lost customers, thats roughly $100000 lost, if your publisher even gives you $2 for each sold copy.

If your game is even an order of magnitude less marketable than this, then you might just want to focus almost entirely on game content over game technology, since by the time it gets released, the new hardware will blow away what you were working on anyhow. And most optimizations are best done by making sure you are using the appropiate data structure for whatever data you are representing. Also, you can optimize performance by gobbling memory.

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To : pTymN

O_o

If your game is writen in somthing slow like Python or C# and sombody writes a game that is similar to yours buth has been writen in c++ & Assembler I supouse you woud lose about 60% of your market And why do you think that writeing in C++ is slower than High level. It yust depends on your capabilites. I can write as fast in C/C++ as in Visual Basic, and if the app is big (like game) I supose that writeing it in C/C++ woud make it even faster.
The only real speed diference in C/C++ and other lanuges (high level) is that C/C++ compiles the code not interpret.

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C++ development is no "slower" than development in any other language, once you've got your base memory management libraries and whatnot created.

You *SHOULD* be reusing these libraries from project to project. If you're reinventing the wheel for everything you do, you're not a very good programmer.

[edited by - Etnu on June 1, 2004 5:07:03 PM]

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