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harr

Making money without selling

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When people think about money from games or programs they often imediately think of selling the game without looking into alternatives. It can actually be much easier to earn money in some other ways, I''m going to talk about one way: adware. Just one thing to note first, I am talking about some adware which is put on other peoples games and you just put the game on your website, if you want to put some adware on your own games then I do know a company that will do it, I''ll post it if I''m asked. So if you have a website of free games, you can add theese to the bottom and earn some money. Adware is not neccessarily bad, the type I am showing shows one or two pop-ups on internet explorer every hour, and can be removed with add/remove programs. You get $0.06 for every unique US install, which is a lot even if you just have a medium traffic website, you could earn enough to make a living with just this and no other jobs if you have a couple of thousand visitors a day and for the amount of effort required you can make quite a bit from several hundred visitors a day (I would say that you need at least 100 visitors a day though). There are 17 different games you can put on your website which will give visitors to your site plenty of choice of what to download. http://www.downloadsmanager.com/refer.php?id=121 http://www.download-free-games.tk

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1. If this is "good" spyware why does your site not mention up front that the game include it and why does downloadmanager.com's site not mention it either?

2. Why didn't you mention that you get a fee (10% of what someone earns) for anyone who signs up with the link you supplied?

3. The likelihood of earning significant money from this is slim because they only pay you for installations by people who have never installed any of their products before.
Quote from their terms and conditions - "The commission given is USD$0.06 per download from people in the US who haven't already downloaded any of our products.

4. Quote from their terms and conditions (http://www.downloadsmanager.com/terms.html) - "If Downloads Manager has lost profit over the course of a month then payments may be suspended temporarily or permanently."
This is an utter joke.
It costs money to run a business. You pay your staff, your rent, any production costs and (in the case of this company) any fees/commissions to people who distribute the adware/games. Those are costs that have to be paid regardless of if you are making "a profit" or not. If someone distributes the games as described within the agreement then they have earned the commission and that money should be paid.

The nature of business is that you have to invest money at the start (make a loss) in order to build the business and make more profit in the future. Most companies spend all their early profits on growing the business so that they benefit in the long term. This means that in the normal run of business they may not make any profit and under the terms of this agreement they wont have to pay you, despite the fact that their lack of profit is due to them growing their business.

Note: the phrase "If Downloads Manager has lost profit" actually makes no sense. It is not the same as saying "made a loss" or "did not make a profit". It actually means that they made a profit and then lost the money. I can't believe that this agreement was created by a lawyer/solicitor. (If it was then they didn't speak English as their native tongue and the translation is wrong). I would question if it is even legal to withhold money owed just because you have not made a profit.

Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions (www.obscure.co.uk)
Game Development & Design consultant

[edited by - obscure on June 6, 2004 7:52:52 AM]

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I think I'll go over this in each seperate section. Of course you can have your opinion, but I will try and answer the sections anyway.
1) It does not include "spyware" all this does is display adds, it doesn't take any personal information (apart from the IP address so that it can record who has downloaded it so they know how much to give you. It does say clearly in the terms and conditions what you are installing.
2) I didn't think it was neccessary, anyone who reads through before joining (which of course you should) will see that. I also have to be a member of the scheme to do this, so that means I must trust them, even if it is to my advantage that you join.
3)Most of the people in the US who downloaded these games have not downloaded any of them before. In fact I find that I get 1 unique US install for every 10 visitors.
4) This does seem a bit like a joke at first. However you have to trust people sometimes. They do make the payments. I have not had a single payment withheld. If they didn't give the money why would I bother trying to get a bonus for people joining up if I didn't recieve it anyway?
You considered that lost profit wouldn't even mean what you are talking about, if something doesn't make sense if you think it means something, then perhaps it means something else. It could be meant to be interpreted in a different way.

http://www.download-free-games.tk

[edited by - harr on June 6, 2004 8:18:39 AM]

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quote:
Original post by harr

1) It does not include "spyware" all this does is display adds, it doesn't take any personal information (apart from the IP address so that it can record who has downloaded it so they know how much to give you. It does say clearly in the terms and conditions what you are installing.
You are correct in relation to the first issue (or at least I can't show that you are wrong). I accept your statement that it is adware, not spyware but ask how you know that this isn't spyware?

However on the issue of EULA I don't agree with what you say. No one reads them and a more honest company would make it clear prior to download that this is adware.

quote:
2) I didn't think it was neccessary, anyone who reads through before joining (which of course you should) will see that.
It seems we have differing opinions on what is acceptable behaviour.

quote:
3)Most of the people in the US who downloaded these games have not downloaded any of them before. In fact I find that I get 1 unique US install for every 10 visitors.

Define "most". How many people are there who download these games (what is the total size of the market) and how many have already downloaded them?

One of the problems with systems like this is that the more people sign up for this system the more people see the games and download them so the fewer unique customers remain. Any more that will be made is made very early in the system. After that all that happens is the same "customers" just install the same adware but from a different game and no one gets paid.

quote:
4) This does seem a bit like a joke at first. However you have to trust people sometimes. They do make the payments. I have not had a single payment withheld. If they didn't give the money why would I bother trying to get a bonus for people joining up if I didn't recieve it anyway?

It seems like a joke at first, then the more you think about it the less funny it is. No one should have to trust people when you are talking about this or any other, form of business venture. The clause in question allows the company not to pay you money they owe, even if you have acted within the terms of the agreement. No one should ever agree to such a clause and then trust the other person not to use it. The fact that they have paid you up to know doesn't mean they will pay you tomorrow; the fact that they have paid you doesn't mean they will pay someone else. A clause allowing non-payment of money owed simply isn't acceptable (and is almost certainly not legal).

quote:
You considered that lost profit wouldn't even mean what you are talking about, if something doesn't make sense if you think it means something, then perhaps it means something else. It could be meant to be interpreted in a different way.
The law doesn't accept what a person meant to write, only what the words they wrote actually mean. "Lost profit" means they had profit and lost it. That means the company could make a profit, lose it and they wouldn't have to pay people the money they owe. - Interestingly if they make a loss, break-even or make a profit (and don't drop it down the drain) they still have to pay.

This makes no sense for two reasons;
1. The concept of lost profit simply doesn't exist in business. You either make a loss, you break even or you make a profit. If a company later lose the profit they made (drop it down the drain?) then that is their problem.
2. It is illegal not to pay money you owe and you can be taken to court. Even if a company makes a loss they are still responsible for their debts. If it is an individual (not a company) then they are responsible and someone could sue them and even have them declared bankrupt. The law doesn't allow for illegal clauses in contracts and it certainly isn't legal for a company not to pay their debts just because they made a loss, made a profit or even "lost profit" (whatever they may think that means).

If you think you know what this term "lost profit" means I would be interested to have you explain. If you don't know what it means I would be interested to know why you agreed to something without knowing what it means.

Additional items
One other reason why I don't believe this agreement was created by a lawyer/solicitor. It does not contain a clause limiting/specifying jurisdiction. A proper contract will contain a clause that states which country/states courts have jurisdiction over disputes relating to the agreement. This agreement has no such clause. This means that a person in China could go to a Chinese court and sue downloadsmanager.com for breach of this agreement. Ditto for anyone else in any other country. A good lawyer would add a clause that ensure any legal action must be taken in the courts of the country/state where downloadsmanger.com's owner resides/does business.

The person who wrote this agreement is either;
1. Not a lawyer,
2. A very bad lawyer,
3. A very good lawyer who doesn't speak English and the person who translated the agreement made some very bad mistakes.

Conclusion
The agreement almost certainly isn't legal. If it is legal then it certainly isn't fair and anyone agreeing to it isn't a very smart person.


Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions (www.obscure.co.uk)
Game Development & Design consultant

[edited by - obscure on June 6, 2004 2:04:41 PM]

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