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# OUR Doc - The future of RPGs

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OK, so the last thread was getting a little crowded. I am just starting anew so that people can have their say in a less crowded environment. THE DOC is available from my site Or more directly; from the discussions page. It has had a facelift from its original form, and it is about 3 times as bloated as the last time I tried to inform everyone about it . I would like to know anything that you have to say on these matters:
• Pictures: It needs pictures, you tell me where and tell me what kind of pictures, and I will do so (or try, within reason)!
• A legend? Well, I have been considering putting in a legend of all the acronyms that I used in the doc. Good idea or do you think that it has been covered enough?
• Layout: Well, I have added sections and a Table of Contents, and I will be adding numbers for each section and its subsections. Do you have another idea for this?
• Implementations: I need some more ideas. I am thinking of including game ideas in it as well, just so that there can be some diversity in the doc.
• Index: Do you think that there should be an index? I have ignored this for a while, but it may be useful if the doc continues to grow
• IDEAS: I do want to hear any ideas that you have about what could be added into the doc. I need some more substance in there, this is OUR production remember. It is OUR doc, and it is going places . Make your contribution...

# We want YOU!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft "The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production Our Doc - The future of RPGs Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

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quote:
Original post by dwarfsoft
Pictures: It needs pictures, you tell me where and tell me what kind of pictures, and I will do so (or try, within reason)!

I would like a picture of a goblin holding a sign reading: "End Goblin Genocide!"

quote:

A legend? Well, I have been considering putting in a legend of all the acronyms that I used in the doc. Good idea or do you think that it has been covered enough?

That depends on the intended audience for your doc. All the ''regulars'' here at gamedev knows pretty well what you''re talking about but if it must have a larger audience then a legend may be a good idea.

quote:

Layout: Well, I have added sections and a Table of Contents, and I will be adding numbers for each section and its subsections. Do you have another idea for this?

Nope.

quote:

Implementations: I need some more ideas. I am thinking of including game ideas in it as well, just so that there can be some diversity in the doc.

What do you mean by game ideas? Plots and such? I don''t really think that it belongs together with the rest of the doc. If you really would want it maybe you could make some kind of ''Appendix'' containing a couple of examples of how a game could be designed to incorporate some of the new features.

quote:

Index: Do you think that there should be an index? I have ignored this for a while, but it may be useful if the doc continues to grow

I don''t think it necersarry quite yet. Your document isn''t that large. And it would be a pain to maintain when the doc is constantly growing.

quote:

IDEAS: I do want to hear any ideas that you have about what could be added into the doc. I need some more substance in there, this is OUR production remember. It is OUR doc, and it is going places . Make your contribution...

Nice of you to share the credit with us . I''ll let you know if I come up with any ideas.

Regards

nicba

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I think it needs a small eye-candy lifting and a better looking table of contents.
If i have your permission i''ll try to make it better to access and read.
But it is really unbelievable how big it is and how many good ideas there are at the moment!Let''s keep it growing!

Voodoo4

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I''m downloading it (again!) and I''ll see if I can come up with some nice ideas. Maybe it''s a good idea to host the doc on other sites as well? The ideas you mentioned in your post are good ideas.

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It would be really nice if the HTML version used frames. Like have the table of contents along the left side.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake

"The road of excess also just ends up making me tired because I'm too lazy" --Nazrix

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Thanx all, I will try...

Nazrix:
The TOC for HTML is kinda stuck. I just update the document in Word97 format, and then just before upload I save RTF and HTML versions. Because I am doing it this way I don''t really have a choice about the TOC and its placement. I will try to get that done at some point though. One small problem is that if you access a framed version from my site, you end up with a rather confusing set of navigation bars, and you wouldn''t have much screen space left then would you? . I am trying to find a way to stop word from making the TOC into "each line is a paragraph" but it is near impossible without screwing up the formatting. I will try to fix this stuff up soon. It is going to require a manual edit. It needs to be done

Arjan:
Yeah, I am going to upload it to tripod and angelfire (if I can remember my password). I will post those locations up here when I do

Tripod Site is here and you can get to the doc via the links. It may or may not be uploaded by the time that you read this, I am having some u/l problems though.

I wonder if I can get my old geocities account back, just for another distribution means. I will have to keep tabs on where the source of the doc is, so I can distribute new versions. Crosswinds will be my main distribution centre though

Voodoo4:
You are welcome to make it better, I need all the help I can get, as you can see from what it is currently, I have a high expectation on it. I need to do some adding to forum links . Concequently though, how do you propose to do this... I do agree that the HTML TOC is screwed beyond recognition, but that is because of Paragraph formatting, and for some reason word doesn''t like using a new <BLOCKQUOTE> in the same paragraph (ie, if I was just using <BR> for the new lines instead of Word''s Naziesque <P></P> combinations ).

Eyecandy is something that needs to be done. It just isn''t me without the gamedev Smiley Faces so I think I will add a few in, for charcter.

I am proud of all that we have achieved here, and I would like to see that this document is continued on, for a long time in the future (if for some reason I cannot continue its update).

Who wants to be nominated as heir to the throne.. er... work?

nicba:
Goblin with EGG on it? Hmmm, how good an artist do you think I am? . I will see if I can theive MKV''s goblin from his board, and I will do a bit of a touch-up so that it has the ability to hold a sign... If I get time .

The audience for the doc is more than just those from GDNet. I intend for any person to be able to understand it. That is why I need for it to be proofread by newbies who have not seen a lot of the threads where these ideas have come from. I often forget that sometimes I am mentioning an idea that was developed over 20 pages (EGG ) and I am compressing it into a paragraph, it sometimes loses its meaning. But I think I will add in a legend anyway, in the Notes section...

By game ideas, I kind of was meaning a combination of systems designed to work together. This way it can be possible to show mock-ups of how each system can work interconnected with others. Does that make sense?

Credit is given where credit is due, I have got most of my ideas from this board, so I think that it is only fair to give credit to the location of my thoughts. Also, a lot of the content of the doc is actually other peoples ideas that I have worded differently. I have started giving credit specifically to people in the newer sections, but I am having a few problems there. I am falling a little behind with new ideas on this board. That will be a challenge for the readers of this thread (I came to this decision last night).

The challenge:
I seem to have dug myself into a little bit of a hole of late. I have been saying that "I will add this" and "I will add that" in various threads, but I have not had the chance to add it at the time (the reason why I post the one liner "It will be added" is so that I can remember to add it ). Because I haven''t added it, my memory has failed and I have still not added it... so?

I want people to report back here and tell me of any ideas that I said that I would add, but are not in the doc (the one that I uploaded yesterday). I have not done any modifications yet, so that is not an issue. If you find it, then tell me . Thanx all.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

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dwarf,
Oh I see...Do you mind if I try making an HTML version? I''m not the greatest at HTML, but I could give it a shot just for the hell of it.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake

"The road of excess also just ends up making me tired because I'm too lazy" --Nazrix

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sure Nazrix ... welcome to. I can easily just do a "delete TOC" and save a body for a frames version, and I could also save the TOC in a seperate HTML file for you. If you wanted to fix up the HTML TOC then you are welcome to. All it needs is for each line at the end of the TOC to have a <BR> instead of all those annoying <P></P> tags. The headings "Notes" "NPC''s" etc are like this example... Actually, here is an example from the first few of the entries:

  THE FUTURE OF RPG''s
Introduction
Foreword
In The Beginning...
Notes
...

You get the idea? Thanx man.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

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Yeah, I see what you''re saying. This would give me something to do when I am supposed to be actually working

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Thats nice, very good work. I didn't expect you to have started yet... Oh, and appologies for the _TOC<some_completely_arbitrary_number> that Word put in. They are not sequential either because I moved a lot of things around when I did the reorganising for the TOC... It is really messy under there

Good work though (I am going to have to have a 'thanx for contributions' in the foreword now )

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI ) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

Edited by - dwarfsoft on August 27, 2000 9:14:15 PM

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Really? I didn''t even know how to use frames til an hour ago hehe...I found a tutorial

Yeah, I''m at work and bored as hell, so it gives me something to do. The only bad thing is that it keeps running out of room on the frame and putting part of a line on a new one...but I don''t want to make the frame too large.

Thanks for the compliment though

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If you want to check out a nasty looking frameset, see the one on my site:

http://www.crosswinds.net/~dwarfsoft/Index.html. It has some nice example value... You could check out HTML Goodies too.

Now people.... Lets get back On Topic

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

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Well, i''ve read an earlier version of this document, and i have quite a lot of bones to pick with it (although i''ve had a lot of these ideas myself, as i bet most of us have). I plan to download the entire thing and comment paragraph by paragraph. I''ll post it when i''ve done this. In the mean time...

You''re exporting from Word97... This has "smart quotes" which means that it looks fine when viewed under windows, but in any of these other OS''s, there are question marks all over the place in place of much of the punctuation. While not a huge problem, it does make it harder to read. Check out the "Demoronizer" available at http://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/demoroniser/ to undo this. It requires Perl, and if you don''t have Perl on your machine or a UNIX shell ready to use, talk to me and maybe we can arange something.

Crackpot Productions--
Senior Cracked Pot--
Benc

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I think your frames look pretty good ...I'm starting to shorten some of the sub-categories so they fit better...I hope that's cool

I forgot how much good info there is in here

Edited by - Nazrix on August 27, 2000 11:04:03 PM

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I haven''t read all of this thread so i''m posting in the ignorance that someone else has mentioned this but in relation to what you said about using game idea''s. I''m thinking that they would serve best as examples to explain concepts within the doc. They should probably be keep to a minimun as well because they can get a little tedious after a while?!

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

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Just checked out the doc Chris, looks great. Very nice touch up from the previous doc. Thank you for going to the effort of compiling the work done here and allowing everyone to have their own copy. It gives me a nice warm fuzzy feeling all over I personally appreciate your effort, THANKS!!!

I hope to help you with it. I''ll look it over again and try and find some ways to help make the doc a more enjoyable read. It just seems a little textbook''ish atm. Maybe a little bit of humour here and there wouldn''t go astray? Just to make it a little more reader digestable?! I shall return to help again

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

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About smart quotes: Yeah, I am using SunOS CDE at the moment, I was wondering about this. I will fix it if possible. Is there a simple option in W97? I will take a look anyway though.

benc: If you want, I can just email you with a notice about an update, I will give you a link to the HTML doc, you can then u/l it somewhere (or email it to me ) and I will fix it up. Maybe even have a permanent link to a "smart (or not very) quotes" and "laymans quotes" pages. Laymans would take more time to find... I may even try to write an app that normalizes it, I don''t think it is very hard to find the quotes and fix them. (after all, I have already written a frames->layers converter ... shameless plug).

Paul: thanx for the appraisal, it is a conglomeration of all of our work here. I am surprised that nobody tried to do this here before. Maybe we could get some help hosting it on GDNet (Can you help us out MKV? or Dave? ). I would like to thank you as well for being one of the many MAJOR contributors of this doc, we need more thinkers like you in the world

About the textbook appearance, well, it is like that because I couldn''t add in the smiley faces, and I was writing it for formal reading. I was going to jazz it up a little once I had stolen a few smiley faces from sites like this one. This is one of the few things that I need to do, I will try and get the goblin with the "E.G.G." sign, and I will also try to put in some one-liners. Damn, that means that I have to read through it again... *sigh* I was avoiding this

REITERATING THE CHALLENGE
I seem to have dug myself into a little bit of a hole of late. I have been saying that "I will add this" and "I will add that" in various threads, but I have not had the chance to add it at the time (the reason why I post the one liner "It will be added" is so that I can remember to add it ). Because I haven''t added it, my memory has failed and I have still not added it... so?

I want people to report back here and tell me of any ideas that I said that I would add, but are not in the doc (the one that I uploaded yesterday). I have not done any modifications yet, so that is not an issue. If you find it, then tell me . Thanx all.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

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I was saying something about eyecandy.
Well i spent 3 hours of my valuable time today() to make something about the DOC''s visualization.
http://ancientcode.webjump.com/index2.html
Check this out and tell me what do you think!

In a few weeks i''ll also upload my website http://ancientcode.webjump.com/index2.html

Voodoo4

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Nice to see this project is still going on, DwarfSoft It would be nice with a site based on the doc, maybe devided into sections, with examples and a discussion forum.
Sadly, I don''t really have much time to spend here since I started school , so I''ll probably just stop in a couple of times a week, to check for updates and stuff. It takes too much time to keep up to date with all of the topics here.

Be sure to tell me if you ever make that site, Dwarf!

See you later /Taharez

It's me again!

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I like the visualisation a LOT - I''ll change the link I''ve just put up in the Forum FAQ

Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

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I like the visualisation, but I hate the ads . Owell, I will host a new site at crosswinds then for the doc... But I will keep the doc at all its original locations...

sites for the doc are:
Crosswinds
Tripod
Angelfire

I hope to stick up a dedicated site sometime as well. Thanx all for your efforts . Once I get that dedicated server that I have been looking for, the doc will have a permanent home, feel free to distribute this around the net though...

NEW CHALLENGE: Add a link to the doc to as many search engines as possible . That ought to broaden the audience

Again: Thanx

MKV: Can I steal your goblin pic (from the goblin board) and give him a banner that says "End Goblin Genocide"?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

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Sure you can, Dwarf! That''s what open-source is for
I''ll be glad to have my art all over your document.

Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

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dwarfsoft,
I would like to post this on my website I don''t have any banners or advertisments which should make some of you happy, for that matter I don''t have much content at all, save the links page Oh, btw, my site is

I know it is opensource... but thought I would let you know first.

Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

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Sure dak, go ahead. It would be great to get this distributed all over the net. I would like for people to hear all of your ideas . I am going to have to compile a list of different links to it now .

On an opensource note: I think that the doc should be editable, but you should have to state that you edited it next to the version number (don''t update the version number, just add your additional version system). Then email me that you have done an edit (dwarfsoft@crosswinds.net) and a link to the u/l of the doc. Then I can compile them all and distribute a new doc . Sound good? That way everybody can add a peice, and then I am just there to clean up the scraps into a nice neat pile

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche