• Advertisement

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

XP or XP's

This topic is 6389 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Recommended Posts

One thing that i havn''t seen done in RPG''s is to have more than one type of Experience Point. Is there a reason for this? I was thinking of a system were the player gets skills to start the game with. Each skill improves by collecting experience points which are automatically put into the appropriate skill. When the skill maxes out it creates a fork of new skills to excel in. The player can select from this point which new skills that they want to work on next. Example: 1st skill would be Melee fighting; 2nd skills would be bludgeoning, piercing, slashing weapons 3rd skill would be a weapon specific skill. After this the player can go back to the first skills and go for projectile or go back to Melee fighting and work on a new 2nd skill. Another XP system was to have to different types of XP 1. Academic and 2. Practical. You would get Experience points in these separate categories for doing differnent tasks. As you go up level in one XP category it wouldn''t be called level 1 practical, instead it would be something like -Level 1 practical is called harmless and Level 20 practical is dangerous - Level 1 academic would be called dumbass and Level 20 academic is called genious -. This way a play doesn''t think of their character a level 1, 2 or 3 etc instead they have something a bit more descriptive like "I''m a Dangerous Dumbass" or "I''m a Harmless Know-it-all". Skill''s would be seperated into these two XP categories so when a character goes up a level in (lets say) practical then there would be "X" amount of skills in this category that they can place skill points into. I can see a lot of potential in having more than one XP counter in a game. I was just wondering why it hasn''t been done or maybe it has?! I love Game Design and it loves me back. Our Goal is "Fun"!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Advertisement
I like the idea of separating the theoretical and practical aspects of a skill. The thing is that I am not sure this is needed. I mean, for instance in the P&P RPG I used to play, you would have a theory of combat skill and the related skills that are learnt through practice (Weapon skills, Dodging, Parrying, etc).
As well, you have a Theory of Magic skill, and each spell is a skill on its own.

I loved the system used in Stormbringer RPG, where each time you would do a critical using a skill, you would gain a mark in this skill. Then at regular intervals (end of scenario, generally), you would roll the dice to know if you could increase in those skills where you got marks (one roll per mark). The higher your level in the skill, the more difficult the increase (to take a sort of learning curve in account). On the other hand, you could simply increase your level through XP, in which case there was no difference made by the current level you were at, but the increase would be smaller.
So far, I don''t think there has been a really interesting way to show the difference between theory and practice...
Maybe those ideas would be a good start ?

youpla :-P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by ahw
, you would have a theory of combat skill and the related skills that are learnt through practice (Weapon skills, Dodging, Parrying, etc).

Practice as in? When you fight your fighting skill is automatically increase slowly? When you fight with a halberd your halberd skill increases slowly?

I guess this does have it''s benifits over the first system i mentioned if the player was controlling a human. As the system that i mentioned probably made skill improvement a little "too" manual. Hmmm, thanks





I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I''m going to re-mention an experimental system that came up somewhere in the really early days of "what''s with stats?".

It separates "skill" into three areas:
- ability: your natural, bodily aptitude. Things like Strength and Dexterity in ADnD...
- knowledge: your theoretical mastery of a subject.
- skill: your practical mastery of a subject.

Abilities are pretty unchangeable - barring certain special effects and a LOT of training.
Knowledge can be trained quite well, through self-study ( very slow ) or through being taught ( much faster ).
Skill can be practiced by yourself or with teaching. Total skill level is bounded by your knowledge in a subject - no matter how much you practice, if you don''t know everything, you won''t be able to do everything.



Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My game will used a variant of the chaosium system used in stormbringer. As in stormbringer, each time you use a skill you have a chance to increase it. Besides, at the end of the day, you can distribute stress points which are given by the GM. The stress points allow the player to evolve the character the way he wants, whereas the skills improves depending on the way he plays.
Each skill level costs more points than the previous one (I have yet to establish the learning curve).

This way I can choose to reward the player for his roleplay. Anyway, the skills wont evolve very rapidly, because I want the characters to do things using their brains (or the players brains) rather than using their muscles.

There are roots skills, these will evolve together until a certain level, then separatly.

"Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius there was an age undreamed of..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I like the use-increase idea for skills, but what''s to stop a person from repeatedly casting fireball at a wall over and over again then going out into the game world with Grand Master skills? Yes, I suppose this is practice, but shouldn''t you only gain by actually using it in the field?

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, there is only a slim chance that the skill actually increase, so he would have to practice for a long time. Moreover, the player impersonate a traveller, so staying to long in one place could mean he doesn't want to travel anymore... Sort of game over then. ( Well, perhaps he will be warned of its anti-rolistic ways before)

As it has been previously said magic is a tremendously difficult task but for the simplest of things. In this game, the only fireball you can do is a static spherical zone where air transmutate itself into fire. So much for the fireball. Besides, if he can do that more than ten times a day (practice a lot this one), i would be surprised. To spice the life of a would-be magician, he will probably be killed if someone else discover his magical abilities (great cataclysm due to magic abuse).




Edited by - DungeonMaster on August 28, 2000 3:43:10 PM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I''ve been working on a similar system. The player must first take part in adventures to gain Adventuring Experience, which is a value assigned to how much that player as accomplished in his/her class. Then, the player takes his/her character to a training room. In said training room, the player exchanges his/her Adventuring Experience Points and works to build up his/her Attribute Experience, which is like regular levels in your average RPG. Then, when the player has enough Attribute Levels, he/she can then exchange levels gained for skills, i.e a given skill, called Guided Blow, requires that the player exchanges three levels to gain said skill. The player can never go below level one, and can only have a given number of skills (to allow for excessive levelling). Said skill is very weak when first acquired, but the player can level up the skill to improve it. Figure into the system that there is also Magic Knowledge experience and Magic Usage experience (for each spell), and you end up with something ungodly complex... which is perfect for micromanagement freaks, but horrible for the rest of us. I''ve got some "dumbing down" to do, yet.

-Jaemes Weare

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well personnaly, i think that buying your skills is a little too unrealistic. For me you learn new skills by practicing them. To learn to play harp, you play harp. The training is good, if the master is good, and if he can bear his student ;-)

Still training takes times, and the player should feel how boring two weeks of training can be. Moreover, trainers should be rare, unless you place the action in a very cultured world, where learning has been elevated to an art.
The high priest of Mandaar then said :
"One duty above all : the guidance of the youngs, always answer to their question, whatever they may be. No knowledge should be restricted."
Of course using some necromantic lore is forbidden, but not knowing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I wasn''t suggesting that you *buy* the skills - more along the lines that you trade your experience for the skills that a trainer will provide. The experience is only there to prove that you have what it takes to use the skill.

-Jaemes Weare

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Have you guys played the game Dark Ages from Nexus?

Try it...

I used to be afraid of the dark, until i saw the light.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay, I really just skimmed over a couple sentences here and there...but I think I understand the basic concept behind all this.

Anyhow, this is probably going off on a little bit of a tangent, but has anyone played Betrayal at Krondor (or Betrayal in Antara)? In BaK, there are no experiance points at all. You have a set of skills (Melee combat, barding, lockpicking, etc.) that improve as you use them. So, you could sit around all day, go into taverns and play, and improve your barding skill, but your others skills won''t grow at all. Or, you could never try barding...just run around and kill stuff, and your combat skills will go up (and these depending on which combat skills you use), but nothing else. It really makes for a good game.

BTW, if anyone hasn''t played Betrayal at Kronder, I recommend running off and getting a version however you can. Sierra was giving it away for a while...I dunno where to find it, now, though.

P h a n t a s m -- "Through dreams I influence mankind."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
Have any of you played a game called Final Fantasy Tactics? It uses an interesting system. There are two types of Exp: regular experience point and job points. Basically, while in a fight, whenever you perform an action, you gain both types. Exp affects your stats(like strength, speed, etc.) and job points allow you to gain levels in your job class and they also allow you to learn skills. The way the job system works is that each character starts out with two classes available: squire(physical) and chemist (magic). As you gain JP, more jobs open up to you. For instance, once a character reaches a certain level of squire, you gain acess to new jobs, like the archer and the knight class. Each class has a unique set of skills (the knight class has the ability to break the enemy''s armor, weapons, etc. and the thief class can steal stuff). If you decide to switch from a thief to let''s say an oracle or a bard, you can still equip the thief skill set as a secondary skill set (you have two, a primary and a secondary), but you will lose the thief''s speed bonuses and it''s ability to equip knives. In addition to this, special characters have a unique job class instead of the squire, such as Holy Knight and Engineer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess the message here is that you should make a XP system that suits your game. Don''t just use one because it worked well in this game or another. I''m not saying "reinvent the wheel" just change the tyres that suit the terain your game will be going through. That''s all.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess XPs have a reason to exits, the problem is just why the heck do YOU want to use it. There is the reward XP , or pavlovian way of doing it (in my opinion) : "Good PC, gooood PC, there you go, some XP". Which is appropriate for teenagers, because it make it easier to brage about (" Well, YOU are still 27th level, so SHUT UP!").

But personnaly I believe XPs have a use for more interesting things, jsut like most of us have shown it above.
The decision, I think, is whether you want to use XP as an internal counter for some interesting feature of the gameplay, or if you want to use it as a score thingie.

I think most of us agree that it''s time to evolve beyond the simple scoring system, whatever you call it, and move to a more mature way of seeing Role playing.

Of course if 90% of the market are hormonnaly unbalanced prepubeous teenagers ... should we bother at all ?

youpla :-P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We could also design games wich would attract other parts of the population. If you make only games to please little-brained people (well some games are like this anyway), then only them will play.
Most of my fellow rôle players don''t play computer games anymore because of that "rpg" game wich wasn''t rpg at all.
What about people wich are NOT attracted by violence, senseless killing or the such ? Women for example ;-)
I think computer gaming could touch a much larger audience if it was not targeting only male 10-18 years old.

"Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius there was an age undreamed of..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You know, having read my earlier posts, I realise how ludicrous the system is, really. Why don''t we dump experience altogether? Just say "look at you, you accomplished {such and such}. Good for you." and let the player go on with their game. Eliminate experience and you suddenly get a game that is based only on the player. The character is, for the most part, only going to need to "statistics": strength and weight. With those two you can effectively derive all other "statistics" in other games: agility, defense, constitution, etc. These two "statistics" (god that''s annoying) can change as the character accomplishes various tasks, but it''s never necessary for them to "level up". Anything to add to this idea? What about skills, magic, and the rest?

-Jaemes Weare

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How about you have a traditional XP and level system, where you dish out heaps of rewards for accomplishing story points or whatever..
And make them mean nothing except a gauge of how much you''ve done. Make all stats and skills change dynamically, unrelated to xp. That''ll mess the players up a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Damn XP.. And Damn the leveling system all to hell! Skill based is the way of the future. You get more aptitude at SPECIFIC skills and they gain levels by training them at a required location (like a gym). XP is EVIL! EVIL I TELLS YA! Well, maybe only for what I use it for

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by DungeonMaster

What about people wich are NOT attracted by violence, senseless killing or the such ? Women for example ;-)



Funny you mention that...my girlfriend is better at Doom than I am (and I''m not too shabby, IMHO). She doesn''t let a level go by without killing EVERYTHING in the level...

Point to this post? There''s an exception to every rule...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But before we ditch this system lets think about what it can be used for. As ahw pointed out, its really only been used for rewards. Its time to enter the think tank and work out new and exciting ways of using the XP concept. Rewards tend to be connected to status and vice versa so lets send out a new message. All we need is a message and we can then design a new xp system around that. I personally like the message that your weaknesses are actually your strengths.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Advertisement