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Real life realism in games

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Why is it that while most games (especially first-person shooters) are getting much more realistic graphically, but not more realistic with regards to real life? Characters never get tired. They seem to be able to run forever. Maybe they should get tired from running, and gradually slow down. Walking would raise energy levels slowly, and standing still would raise them quickly. Energy levels would also apply to computer players to make things fair. This would make the game more strategic, as you couldn''t just race through all the rooms killing things. Of course, some people want to do that, so maybe the "tiring" thing should be a configurable option (rate of energy drop). Another thing for FPS''s. No game I have played (although that is not many) lets you fall down. I think that if you''re running along, especially if you''re looking upwards, and you run over a bottom stair or something on the floor (body, etc.) you should trip over it and fall flat on your face. Again, it helps make the player have to be more aware of their surroundings and adds to the game''s strategic element. Also, in role-playing or adventure games, characters with lower experience could get "nervous", which would impair aim, so you can''t hit a target as well in combat with a sword/arrow/whatever. This could raise the learning curve, but only if the player is going after advanced enemies near the start of the game, because the lower-level enemies would also get nervous and have bad aim and a shaky defense. Well. This is getting kind of long, but let me know what you think. Scott Lizard Al Productions

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1 Reason: Simplicity. It is too complex to insert a tiredness system. The other reason is that, would it be fun? A lot of games span months in which the character doesn''t eat, sleep, or releive themselves. This is because it just isn''t fun to do all of these all of the time... I would like to see some more of this apparent tedium put into RPG''s though

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-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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2 other things to add to your list:
1. The character can''t hold up a 50lb rocket launcher for hours on end. The character would would have to put it down and rest for a minuite. This resting time could be spaced out at greater intervals as the charater gains experience (builds muscle)
2. The guns never get hot. When a gun gets hot, it is more likely to jam/overheat and burn the person. I have yet to see that in a game. If I ever make a fps or a 3ps, I will be sure to impliment your ideas in it, and maybe my own.

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quote:
Original post by LizardAl

Why is it that while most games (especially first-person shooters) are getting much more realistic graphically, but not more realistic with regards to real life?


How does magic work in real life? Please explain



I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

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I think we''ve skirted around this issue before, and it''s all about player skill vs. character skill.
In an FPS, it is really the player skill that determines how good you are in the game. You wiggle the mouse at insane rates, and click those mouse buttons like a madman, and the better you are, the higher your frag rate. Now, if you add some handicapping ( that''s what tiring and strength are, really ), players will start to find it unfair that, just because they started later, their characters will be worse, or more easily tired, or whatever. If there is no handicapping ( i.e., everyone has the same chance of tiring, everyone has the same strength ) these are just mechanics, and it''s not such a problem.

An example from a game I''ve been playing a lot.
In rollcage ( a 3D racing game ), cars have a set of attributes. They are pretty balanced at the beginning of the game - different strengths and weaknesses for each car/driver. Yet, when you get to hard, there''s a new driver/car team with nearly everything at maximum. To me, this is cheating. The computer is getting an unfair advantage in order to raise the challenge level. This would be just as unfair if it was a human player who simply had played more hours.


Always, ALWAYS keep the playing field level.


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

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My idea of a cheating computer (that ends goblin genocide ) is such that if a player attempts to attack a goblin, the goblin will allow a hit or two and then run away, the player follows. This continues (sucking the player in) until the player gets swarmed by lots of goblins. Not a cheat so much as a tactic. Is that cheating or is it fair? Players can already do this in FPS I know, I''ve tried

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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quote:
Original post by Paul Cunningham

How does magic work in real life? Please explain




Let me show you. Turn around...




*argh* dang teleport spell! Ok, I''ll show you later...


--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

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Heck, forget about falling or eating in a FPS. I just want feet! When am I gonna get feet?! Or a body, for that matter?

Games like this are really about distilling what''s fun out of a situation, so anything that''s not fun gets (or should be) cut.

I thought Quake II would have been a little bit more exciting, BTW, if, when you were hit by the Fiend, he could have knocked your weapon out of your hand. In some cases, your trusty nailgun could have soared right over a cliff. But then I realized that if it was your last weapon and unreachable, that feature would have sucked.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

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quote:
Original post by dwarfsoft

My idea of a cheating computer (that ends goblin genocide ) is such that if a player attempts to attack a goblin, the goblin will allow a hit or two and then run away, the player follows. This continues (sucking the player in) until the player gets swarmed by lots of goblins. Not a cheat so much as a tactic. Is that cheating or is it fair? Players can already do this in FPS I know, I''ve tried



I think for FPS, arcade games and RPGs, all bets are off wrt cheating. Strategy games and races are supposed to be an even and fair contest. But FPS, arcade games and RPGs are allowed to swarm you because it''s part of the hero motif!



--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

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another little example:

It''s midnight, you can barely see the world around you. You''re racing through the level at nightmare difficulty, seeing the eyes and claws of all the nightmarish creatures glisten much-too-close for comfort as you fly past them. You are just fast enough to evade them all, and you''re through the final, huge, brass doors to face the evil of all evils, the One you have to defeat in the Final Challenge.
The door behind you slams shut, cutting off the pursuing monsters. You press 8 for your trusty BFG 25Million. The system bleeps and you get the message "You''re too tired to carry that gun right now, please rest a while." An instant later, the One splatters your intestines all over the bronze door behind you.

THAT''S why you have to be careful with your features

Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

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Are you forgetting that the character would otherwise be swarmed from behind when one of the smarter monsters opened the door? This is a price that they pay for not doing as the game designer spoketh... "Clear out the level, so that the pace may keep thee aliveth, and so you may then destroy the one whom would splatter your intestines for being too tired. Should you choose to race through with little thought, you shall perish". Now it is their fault, because you told them so!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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quote:
It''s midnight, you can barely see the world around you. You''re racing through the level at nightmare difficulty, seeing the eyes and claws of all the nightmarish creatures glisten much-too-close for comfort as you fly past them. You are just fast enough to evade them all, and you''re through the final, huge, brass doors to face the evil of all evils, the One you have to defeat in the Final Challenge.
The door behind you slams shut, cutting off the pursuing monsters. You press 8 for your trusty BFG 25Million. The system bleeps and you get the message "You''re too tired to carry that gun right now, please rest a while." An instant later, the One splatters your intestines all over the bronze door behind you.

THAT''S why you have to be careful with your features


That''s why you apply these ideas to Rogue Spear -type of games, not Quake.

-Jussi

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Hehehe glad to see everyone is actually understanding my point!
[ Good call dwarfsoft, I left that in intentionally, really. *looks innocent* ]


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

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*scolds MKV with waggling finger* Tut Tut! You should know better young man! Never assume stupidity of creatures or monsters. They have a society and an intelligence, no matter how many of them people slay

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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Bah! I think the ideas of getting tired and tripping over are great! Anything is better than the boring carnage FPS''es have
become. And what''s wrong with forcing the player to be more
strategic? Or are we getting strained by the extra activated
neurons, mayhaps?

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Getting tired, perhaps, but tripping over? A semi-random event influencing your chances of survival in a very player-skill based game?
Hmm, I''d like to try it out to see if it would amuse me or annoy me, I''m not sure really.


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

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If you thought that getting is fun, then by all means go do it. But you should study how other games have done it and what effects it had on gameplay.

For example, in Diablo 2, the weaker classes would get tired much more easily, but what did this mean? Well, running across long distance was much undesirable making the game a nuisance espcially after you got killed and need to get back to retrieve your corpse.

And what about falling down, not something i would like to be doing while shooting at my enemies. Also games let you fall down by allowing you to errr fall down. What I mean is that, you cant trip over objects but gravity pulls you down and thats probably enough to make the game realistic.

And ''nervousness'' is quite a good idea but Im afraid that there are similar implementations. Like in Final Fantasy games where a particular stat would determine a HIT or a MISS.

Taking before giving is only logical.

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You run fully equipped towards a staircase, now, in Reality, would you manage to shift your center of balance as quick as in
Quake? Nope, you hit yourself badly against the staircase and get
serious nosebleed. Unless you break a bit before taking steps.
Logical, no randomness involved. The same if you run upon a low
ledge close to the floor at full speed. But one need to see one''s
feet and calculate the steps ingame.
In fact, the more influencing factors in a game, the "funnier" it gets. Otherwise, think about why games like Action Quake and
Counterstrike got more popular than Quake itself.

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Games equal Gameplay. Real life equals reality! It''s that simple
*Magically beams to the next thread*

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

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nervousness is a bad idea, or to be fair it''s what low level are already about.

Can''t you imagine that in fact you''re stronger than what you think and the nervousness makes you low level, with time and experience, you become accustomed to the situation and then don''t be nervous any more...

But if you want to add nervousness, you''ll only make low level weaker that what they are, and the != between levels will be higher...

To me that''s especially bad.

About the other things I tend to agree with MKV, you''d better make an extensive testing before including it.


-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

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Space marines are the hardy lot and very coordinated. They train for months carrying the BFG 25Mill. at full speed up twisted staircases. That''s what they''re best at.

The reason these things aren''t included is (as mentioned before) simplicity. If I were really in that situation, I would have better peripheral vision than a 640x480 monitor can offer, I would know exactly when I''m getting to that first step, and I most certainly can take a staircase at top speed, fully loaded (did it all the time when I was late for class ).

The tired thing is just for fun. I don''t want to have to stop and rest. That mortal element is abstracted away for playability reasons. Yes, I want to make sure I take care of the monsters outside or have some really good way of barring the door. Oh, and if I''ve been lugging the big gun around in my pack the whole time, why do I suddenly not have the strength to hold it in my hand? Adrenaline is a powerful thing.

The point is, I think that 999 out of 1000 players would find tripping and exhaustion in a Quake-style FPS very annoying. But some of these elements are very appropriate in other games, like Rogue Spear (my personal favorite). There''s a reason Quake doesn''t offer a one-shot-kill mode. Nobody wants it (if they do, they play R6 or 007).

We worked fatigue into a recent hunting title, just so you couldn''t go running all over the place (debug mode was fun because you didn''t get tired and could actually run faster than the deer), you also slowed down up hills, couldn''t move with your gun raised, etc. That''s because the point of the game was to provide a realistic hunting experience, not a shoot-em-up bloodbath.

I''m all for realism, but I''m more for fun.


Pax

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You know, I think Dwarfsoft has a point. If handled carefully, you can get a lot of drama out of having to rest. Think about the best monster movies you''ve seen, when the goodguys have to hole up somewhere to heal wounds and recuperate. James Cameron''s Aliens comes to mind. I don''t know what it is, but there''s a cool, kid-like feeling to having to run and hide in the closet when you''re fighting monsters (err, or maybe that''s just how it works for me-- I hated the gameplay of Enemy Infestation, but I thought it was so cool that you had to lock doors in order to protect your weaker team-mates from becoming monster food...)

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Just waiting for the mothership...

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Exactly... Imagine the intensity of the experience if you were being hounded by a swarming pack of monsters whom you had just run past? You would be on the edge of your seat and your adrenaline would have overcome your body. You would be frantically doing whatever it takes to escape the feinds... What an experience... You have adrenaline all through your body just because of a few pixels on the screen... That is what I would call an intriguing experience. I have already experienced this before in Diablo/II and Doom II.. What fun

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft
"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy"
IOL (The list formerly known as NPCAI) - A GDNet production
Our Doc - The future of RPGs
Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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Wow. I really have to check the boards more than once a day. :-)

I agree that for some players the tired thing would be annoying. That''s why I said it should be a configurable setting. Sort of a stamina-setter from Low to Infinite. So you could have the more strategic players using a tiring scheme, and the action players could run around like normal.

And for the nervous thing, like I said, it would apply to NPC''s too, so the player wouldn''t be at too much of a disadvantage unless they go after advanced enemies early on. And to get rid of the bigger gap between levels, you could just eliminate the levels, and have the nervousness based on just experience and number of recent battles. (The longer it has been since a battle, the more nervous they would be)

Paul (How does magic work in real life?): Touche. :-)

Scott
Lizard Al Productions

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