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Nintendo Vs. PC

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I know I''m setting myself up to be flooded with painfully obvious answers but I still would like to get an honest answer. I was surfing the web the other day and came across some pictures of Nintendo''s new system, Gamecube, along with some screenshots from Spaceworld 2000. If you haven''t seen them I recommend going to "Cube.Ign.Com" These screenshots are incredible!!! Quick note here: On the Gamedev.net homepage it has some blurb about the new system being called the "Handbag". Huh?!? Where did THAT come from? Everything else I''ve read says it''s Gamecube. Anyways... Along with the pics it gave some hardware stats. This system is running on a 400 mHz procceser! Wait a moment! How is it that the Gamecube is pumping out these amazing scenes with a 400 mHz when my friends 500 mHz Athalon w/ GeForce 2 and Sound Blaster Live struggles while playing Deus Ex? Why is it that game graphics on the PC are lagging behind when they have obviously superior hardware? Now I know most of you are thinking: "Well, Duh! Game systems are hard wired for graphics, that''s why!" Yes, I realize this. I still think a well equipped 500 mHz should at least be able to match it. Why is it the best graphics a PC user can get are Quake 3 levels? My theory: Game designers wish to make thier games availible to more people so they design their games to run on 233''s and 266''s. This prevents them from getting the really good graphics in. Even if you do have a faster computer all it does is give you a better frame rate at a higher res. Do the models look more realistic? No. I would like to propose that game designers start programming games that require 400-500 mhz and run about 30-40 fps. This would allow SO much more detail! Do you really need your games running at 150 fps? 30 is plenty smooth for me. Anyways... please respond to give your view on the subject. ----------------------------- Blue*Omega (Insert Witty Quote Here)

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Basically pc procesors have to be compatable with all the legacy procesors. 8086 code will work on a p3 but with a console they can put in exactly what they need and have more physical space on the chip to do neet things to make it run fast. With the p4 is easy to see that features are becoming more important than raw speed. also on pc''s the memory bus is a big problem. also im sure a dedicated os that is made to work on one set of hardware runs much faster than a os that supports everything. also if the console only runs one kind of cpu and one kind of graphics chip they can be designed to play off each other perfectly.

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I can give you a few clues as to why the PS2 (which has a 300mhz core processor) can graphically outperform PCS.

First of all, it''s graphics chip is extremely powerful. Theoretical output is 75M polys/sec, about 1 billion pixels/sec.
It also has two processors, one to do the game logic and one to do transform/lighting/etc. The transform/lighting (VU1) processor has 4 FMACs and ALSO always runs two instruction concurrently. Add to the fact that it is directly connected to teh graphic unit, and you see why the graphics are so damn fast.

Basically, MHz is not the end-all measure of performance, consoles have hardware superior to PCs at this current time. This will, however, change with the X-BOX which will have intel inside and more or less a slightly above average video card.

Mike

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Brad8383

Basically pc procesors have to be compatable with all the legacy procesors. 8086 code will work on a p3 but with a console they can put in exactly what they need and have more physical space on the chip to do neet things to make it run fast. With the p4 is easy to see that features are becoming more important than raw speed. also on pc''s the memory bus is a big problem. also im sure a dedicated os that is made to work on one set of hardware runs much faster than a os that supports everything. also if the console only runs one kind of cpu and one kind of graphics chip they can be designed to play off each other perfectly.


The part you said about everything getting slowed down by the os got me thinking: what if the game was made for linux? It runs faster than windows anyway, plus it can be customized for specific hardware. (I know that compiling is a huge hassle, but to some gamers it would be worth it... and maybe people might start trying to make it easier) What do y''all think?

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There''s a few basic things to take in to account.

1) Consoles run on tv''s which are low res compared to a monitor... -similar to 640x480. -If you get a GeForce at that res its going to kick major butt. As the tv is crap at display pixels, you get all the anti-aliasing for free. Makes it look nice and smooth. Where as on a monitor it would look blocky..- ever seen a dreamcast plugged in to a monitor? -doesn''t look good.

2) PAL TV runs at 25 Frames per second.... as its interlaced, there''s 50 fields. Each field is every other line of the display.
Whats this mean? If you''ve got a console running at 50 frames per second, it actually generate 50 fields a second. As a field is every other line on the tv, the resolution is 1/2 of the tv resolution. E.g. Pal tv res= 720 x576, 1/2 of that is 360 x288.
So overall your superfast console is generating 50 fields a second at a res of 360x288. No wonder it may appear to be better than a PC.

So you can start to see why consoles aren''t really any faster than PC''s. Especially now we got TnL graphics cards. Try to get the PS-2 to run at anything like 1600x1200 like the Geforce, it wouldn''t happen. Plus the PS-2 has got hardly any texture memory. I.e. not too good.

As for the game cube, I don''t care. Super Mario Kart on SNES is the only game I want to play.

www.razorforce.co.uk

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"The part you said about everything getting slowed down by the os got me thinking: what if the game was made for linux? "
a console is designed to do just one thing and one thing only and that is to pump triangles onto the screen as fast as possible. a computer cannot compete.
its not gonna make much difference a console will always outperform a computer even if that computer has 5x the hz remember the ps2 is a 128bit machine whilst our intels and amds are only 32bit

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Don''t forget about bus speed also. The PS2''s 150Mhz bus is 50% faster than the normal PC''s 100Mhz bus. And don''t think the Dolphin''s 200Mhz bus (twice as fast as most PC''s) isn''t going to kick some serious ass.

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The thing with PC game developers is that they have to serve the lowest common denomenater. They have to anticipate people that don''t have the latest and greatest in PC gadgets. Hence PC games don''t make total use of a system''s full potential. On the other hand, console developers know exactly what they have to work with, since everyone has the same hardware, so they can make full use of the system''s power, and make great games!

=======================================
A man with no head is still a man.
A head with no man is plain freaky.

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There is also something else. Notice that when a new console comes out it more powerful than the average gamers PC. 3 months later the average gamers PC has surpassed the console a fair bit.
I think legacy compatabillity is the biggest drawback in PC hardware advancement. Especially with the old windows code being run not as optimized as it should be on PC''s. And I guess it wouldn''t work very well for Microsoft to begin with a clean slate. Another decade of major bugs for users to put up with. No thanks.
-David

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i just love it when somebody says well switch to another os if u hate microsoft so much and stop complaining baby baby baby.
the realty is u can pick up linux and what play 5 current games and have 5 current programs come on everyone knows that they hate ms but in reality there is no alternative unless u mind only having 2 programs and 2 games on a os that people are still reluctant to support
.thank you thats my time , ill be here all week

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I never said I didn''t like the old code . In fact I like Microsoft as well. I think they have good products, I was only pointing out that they have to support old hardware,software and it sort of holds everything back a bit.

-David

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Guest Anonymous Poster
I personnaly think the major advantage of game consoles is that, as their hardware don''t evolve, the programmers have time to learn and use every single feature of the hardware.
On PC the games only get better when the hardware gets better. After 2 years your beloved computer can hardly run the new notepad.

Isn''t that lame.


---------------

"You can''t smoke too much crack" -Bill Clinton

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Dude, if you're deus ex is chocking on that H/W, you've got something configured wrong. I have 600 duron, tnt2 and i can run it at 1024x768, with everythign on high detail there is only minimal chocking, med-low give smooth performance.

I have to agree with the lowest common denomanator theory posted above. Also, the PC does not have 'obviously superiour hardware' over a console system. Clock speed is not everything, i think the DC has a 200MHz CPU, but it's not an Intel CPU so nobody can grasp that it might perform better at lesser clock speeds.

The reason linux only has '5 games' for it is becuase it has a tiny percentage of the desktops, 10% i think. If it had 50% you could bet the farm that there'd be as many games available as windows. As for the '5 programs' deal, i'll assume you mean productivity software, Do you really need 3 word processors, 2 spread sheets, 4 email programs, and 5 web browsers? One or two is fine for me. More choice is better but eh... you use what you have. As for all other types of programs, i've noticed that linux kills (rather violently too) microsoft in choice: compilers, text editors, servers, dev environments, graphics programs. Not to mention that this stuff comes bundled with most distros... windows doesn't even bundle a ZIP utility (haha)

P.S. I think i can pass on another round of visually impressive mario/zelda/donkey kong games. (oooh mario kart cube looks sooooo cool)

Edited by - Jim_Ross on September 8, 2000 2:25:35 PM

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quote:
Original post by zedzeek

a console is designed to do just one thing and one thing only and that is to pump triangles onto the screen as fast as possible. a computer cannot compete.
its not gonna make much difference a console will always outperform a computer even if that computer has 5x the hz remember the ps2 is a 128bit machine whilst our intels and amds are only 32bit


Besides being 32bit, they''re CISC, and they have the same core design as old 3/486''s because they have to stay compatible. A console''s CPU is usually designed from the ground up to do what''s needed, an P/Athlon is designed to not break code designed for 386s, and they really can''t grow as well as other CPUs because they''re held back.



------------
- outRider -

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The handbag remark is cause n-cube has a handle on it, and the purple color some editors i think made fun of it like the designers got it from the teletubbies purple handbag.

purplehandbag=purple n-cube...

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I was also wondering, cause a console doesn''t have to worry about where certain things are put, they know where their models are going to be, can they be optimized anyway because of that? (then again i don''t know why it would make a difference...sorry).


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Guest Anonymous Poster

From the original root post:

''Quick note here: On the Gamedev.net homepage it has some blurb about the new system being called the "Handbag". Huh?!? Where did THAT come from? Everything else I''ve read says it''s Gamecube.''

It''s good to see that people were clearly so fast of the mark in determining that this was a joke posted message (I better explain that as sarcasm, again for the slow ones).

As if they would call it the ''handbag''. I can''t believe there are idiots around that are gullible enough to take that in.

''Everything else I''ve read says it''s Gamecube.''

Oh, you tragic fool!



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Let''s not forget something else that makes consoles so fast. Assuming Windows here, Windows is doing a heck of a lot more than running your game. It is also checking messages, updating other programs, making them run and stuff like that. Consoles have one purpose only, to run that game. If your OS was only concerned with making your game run, it would probably go a heck of a lot faster.

-Blackstream

"See you later, I'm going to go grab a few Bytes. I'm so thirsty, I could drink a whole data stream."

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Somebody up above said let''s see the playstation 2 run at 1600 by 1200. I recently saw a demo movie of Metal Gear Solid 2 for the PS2. This is simply the most amazing thing I''ve ever seen on any system, and I doubt that we''ll see anything that good on a computer for a year or more...
It''s all real-time, and it looks better than the FFVII movies. Rain splashing effects on EVERYTHING, awesome waves on a storm-tossed sea. Man, if you haven''t seen it yet, you should. Everyone at the convention it was shown at gave it a standing ovation.
PS2 is one bitch of a system, and I''m sure Sony would have made it run at 1600 by 1200 if TV''s supported this. (for a hefty price hike I might add...)

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quote:
Original post by furby100

PCs are not all 32 bit. The FPU and MMX have 64 bit registers and operations, and SSE has 128 bit registers.


Sigh...register size does not define what ''bit'' a processor is. All current intel machines are 32 bit. The 8086 was 8 bit but also had 16 bit registers...


Mike

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You have all failed to say that, a console is just a video card with input. So imagine taking a geforce 2 with what ever ram it comes with now and add joysticks to it.

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