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Player Vision

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I don't know if this has been done before, or if this is what dwarfsoft was talking about in the Doc... What do you think about a 2d game where the player when you hit the left arrow the player rotates counter-clockwise and when you hit the right arrow he rotates clockwise and up and down move forward and backward. The tiles on the screen are displayed according to line of site within a certain field of view. So, doors and walls would obstruct your view. It wouldn't be like a fog of war where it shows only where you've been before, but it would be according to line of sight. "NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft "Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage Edited by - Nazrix on 9/2/00 11:22:40 AM

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Master of Magic used this. I think its a good idea but to an extent. You have to remember that when you are bringing in that fog you are actually limiting the players view more than what they could see in real life because in real life the character could see off the screen in front of them. I''m supposing the idea that this *should* be somehow balanced. One way would be to give them a broader view to compensate for this loss. Or maybe another way. But it is a good idea either way if done properly i think

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

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I might be missing what you''re saying, but in any 2d game, the player is limited by not seeing off the screen. This would just limit their view on the behind them and there could be an angle that would let them see some of the sides of them to display peripheral vision. Is that what you meant by ''broader vision''?




"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

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I once saw a demo of something like this. One thing to keep in mind: There''s going to be an awful lot of screen changes as the player walks around. Imagine you turning amidst a bunch of columns:


* * *
* * * *

---->YOU *
* *
* * *
* * *

The screen is going to be flickering quite a bit as you turn and move. This may look bad and be distracting, so you may need some graphical pizzaz to make this work.

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

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Very good point. The screen could get pretty annoying. I could compromise and make it so the player won't see other NPCs & items unless facing them. The NPCs & items could be obstructed by walls and doors, but everything else (like the ground, water, and walls) would be always visible.

How's that sound? I'm afraid it may seem inconsistant but maybe a good compromise?




"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

Edited by - Nazrix on September 2, 2000 4:51:21 PM

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You are probably right, rune. Hmmm....

How ''bout if it shows all walls & land, but NPC''s & objects only if they''re not obscured by anything. There could be a line of site going in all directions from the player. I guess that''s kinda what Diablo does if I remember right.




"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

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Basically what you wanna do is Quakelike controls with a top down view.
you forget one thing, in a Quakelike, you can HEAR around you, plus your line of sight is VERY long.
In a top down view, you can see all around you, but not very far.

the top down view compensate the loss from the First Person view (depth of vision, and sound).

On the other hand I want to implement such a system of controls, because I want to try some new ideas for a combat engine.
I mean, if you look at the rogue-like games (Diablo II being the latest example), for games that focus on the combats, I dunno you, but "clickclickclickclickCLICKCLICK DIE! YOu EVIL GOBLiN CLICKCLICKCLICK ! aaaaaah dead... NEXT !" sounds kind of very similar to what existed on Rogue, a text based roguelike (guess where ROGUElike comes from ), and that was ... uh, more than ten years ago ?

anyway, it''s time to make some changes isn''t it. But I am not sure you are on the best path for this.

One idea I had was to make a radar kind of thing. Enemies in your back that make noises would be represented by a BLIP thingie, unless you have seen them, in which case they would be FogOfWar-ed, unless they stop making noise, in which case they dissapear again. I didn''t try this method, but I would love to, it would make a nice implementation of a field of view, which would give one of the thing you lose from a first person view.

youpla :-P

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I think you should make each player's guy a light source (for that player only), leaving everything outside his line-of-sight in shadow -- it would look kinda natural then. I'm talking about genuine, per-pixel lighting (that fades over distance, too). For multiplayer team matches (like Quake), all your teammates could be light sources as well. So you'd generally have good visibility in your own base (with all your teammates around), allowing you to ambush lone attackers who would only see their own line-of-sight.

Nazrix, I agree, there should be "ambient light" that lets you see terrain/walls at all times.

ahw, you made a point about Quake's "3D" sound, which supplements your vision... definitely Nazrix would need to do the same thing (DirectSound3D makes positioning/dopplar effect/etc. very easy, though ya might be better off faking 3D with regular DirectSound).

Also, I think you should use the mouse for turning/aiming, using a crosshair cursor. Aiming using left/right keys would be impossible.

Edited by - Eric on September 2, 2000 9:07:58 PM

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quote:
Original post by Nazrix

I might be missing what you''re saying, but in any 2d game, the player is limited by not seeing off the screen. This would just limit their view on the behind them and there could be an angle that would let them see some of the sides of them to display peripheral vision. Is that what you meant by ''broader vision''?



I don''t really know what i was saying. I''ll have to think a bit more about this. Is there a reason why you would want this in a game though?


I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

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quote:
Original post by Paul Cunningham

I don't really know what i was saying. I'll have to think a bit more about this. Is there a reason why you would want this in a game though?

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!


Yes there is a reason. What led me to this and what my primary goal is that I would at least like a way to obscure view of objects that are behind a wall. Then, I started thinking more and began thinking I could obscure what is behind the player as well.

I think it's important that I note that my game won't be a hack & slash constant action type game. It's not going to be enemies coming from all sides like Diablo. Things will be a bit slower-paced and allow more caculated actions (at least I plan that's how it'll be ).


I just think that the player seeing things like other rooms and NPCs on the other side of walls is rather unrealistic. Obscuring things like this would allow for things like hidden secret passages. It's not much of a secret when you see there's a room right next to you with no obvious doors to it. You'll know there's a secret door somewhere. Just one of the uses of this if I find a good solution.

There's also always Keith's idea of putting the player at the bottom of the screen rather than the middle.



"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

Edited by - Nazrix on September 3, 2000 3:51:04 AM

Edited by - Nazrix on September 3, 2000 4:09:25 AM

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How about the enemies ai. Would the enemies have the same problem as not being able to make decisions based off what they can''t see?

I like the use of slow fade out fogs rather than high constrasting edges. So when you look away from something it doesn''t turn imediately to black but slows fades. This has the effect of displaying the characters memory?

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

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quote:
Original post by Paul Cunningham

How about the enemies ai. Would the enemies have the same problem as not being able to make decisions based off what they can't see?



Yeah, I definetly want to do that.

quote:

I like the use of slow fade out fogs rather than high constrasting edges. So when you look away from something it doesn't turn imediately to black but slows fades. This has the effect of displaying the characters memory?

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!



Not a bad idea, but more importantly I want to simulate the effect of not being able to see through walls in some fashion. I think I may not make it so the character can't see behind him. The main thing is that I want the effect of the character not being able to know what's around the next corner.

I don't think I should make the obscured areas totally black, but just some sort of method that doesn't let the player know about those areas.


So, it would be something like this:


player comes to a room with a closed door in it. So, the player cannot see what's passed the door. The player then opens the door then is able to see passed the door and maybe a little of the hallway. Then the player advances and sees the whole hallway.
If there were NPCs or items the player will not see them til they're in view, and likewise the NPCs cannot see the player til he's in view. It would add the nessessary mystery to it.





I have to admit that part of my desire for this has to do w/ my recent experience of playing Thief. I want to try and add some (not all) of the effects of thief if possible.



I like the idea about the 3d sound. I'll have to try and include that in some way.

I've got Paul here, but where the hell are Landfish and dwarfsoft when you need 'em





"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage


Edited by - Nazrix on September 3, 2000 6:07:06 PM

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mmmh, no one listens to me :''(
Or maybe it''s because of my incoherent mumblings ...

One thing I''d like to know, the screen would NOT rotate with the player, right ? We are jsut talking about different controls, the sprite of the player would just turn around, and see things accordingly ?

A fog of war effect seems very nice to me, everything outside of your FOV if balckened, but all things you saw are still visible (but greyed out); including monsters you have seen already, but only as long as they make noise. Once they stop making noise, they dissapear. If "something" makes a noise out of your FOV, then put a nice BLIP thingie (liek the dots on a radar display) to indicate this noise, possibly making the BLIP vary in shape and size to give an indication of what''s coming behind you, the details varying maybe on your perception skills ... (a stone golem would most probably be a bigger and slower BLIP than rat sneaking behind you.

the idea of putting the hero at the bottom of the screen would make sense to give you a better depth of view (the distance fight would make more sense, at last) and you would have a natural FOV, but you lose the idea of 3D sound simulated by the above BLIPping system. (though you could make a REAL 3D sound system, using ... sound ! )
As well, this would mean that the screen would turn with the player, in which case I ask you, would you REALLY be using a 2D engine anymore ?

Now ... did you read this ?

youpla :-P

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Sorry, ahw, I didn't mean to ignore you

No, I am not planning on the world rotating around the player.



I think I've somehow messed up my point along the way.

Firstly, I'm not very concerned about the whole rotating the player and the player only seeing what's in front of him. That was sort of a product of what I was orignally thinking.

What I was originally thinking was that I'd like to make it so that the field of view would be obscured by obstructions such as walls and doors.

The Blip idea is good...I'll think about that..thanks

About the fog of war, I don't want the player to see anything that is obscured by walls and doors whether he's been there or not.



So, let me present my concept again cause I totally misled everyone the 1st time. For a moment, forget I mentioned that whole rotating the player and only seeing what's in front of you. That's another topic completely. Sorry that I make no sense


What do you all think of this:

The player will see on all sides of him (360 degrees), but not past doors/walls. Maybe if there's a windows he'll see into another room or outside.

So, basically, if the player were in an open field w/ no obstructions, the player will see the whole screen. If there's a wall on the screen the player will not see any objects obscured by that wall whether he's been there or not.





Edited by - Nazrix on September 3, 2000 9:56:32 PM

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How about applying a mosiac effect to an area as it gets further away from you. Or you could create a gradual blur over things as they get further away from you. You could always have focusing to, so if your character remains still the images down a hallway will begin to sharpen in detail/resolution?! This way small things are hard to see even when they are moving (at range) and if something large moves down a hallway you will see a large shift in colours there?

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

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That''s a hell of a good idea, Paul. It''s too bad that I''m not that good at programming to do anything like that

Thanks for the idea though...Very thought-provoking




"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

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quote:
Original post by Paul Cunningham

How about applying a mosiac effect to an area as it gets further away from you. Or you could create a gradual blur over things as they get further away from you. You could always have focusing to, so if your character remains still the images down a hallway will begin to sharpen in detail/resolution?! This way small things are hard to see even when they are moving (at range) and if something large moves down a hallway you will see a large shift in colours there?

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!


Well done again Paul. It''s in... Oh and yes, Nazrix, this was mentioned in the doc, kinda

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