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# Uh ... I barely dare to ask :

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It just downed on me, that in my little wisdom, I still don''t know how death works in MMORPG. I mean, with all he fuss with permadeath or not, I never even imagined that you could actually not die... so how is death dealt with at the moment in MMORPG. I am *NOT* launching a debate on permadeath or not, I am actually trying to understand those people for who permadeath is a sacrilege. For me, it''s ... uh... I dunno since I dunno how it works. So please, tell me youpla :-P

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As i understand it, when you die but not permenantly you are placed back in a spot on the map with only certain items, everything you were carrying (not wearing) is lost. In perma death you are no longer. You can not load up your character again, you can not be brought back by any other means other than a raise dead or resurrect spell. Ressurect spells usually only work within a small time frame of the character being killed. So non-perma death really means "loss of items or a level or something else like that" whereas perma death means "that''s it, you are KO''ed and out of the game/time to make a new character". I hope that helped, as this is my understanding of it anyhow.

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What kind of games must those people play except FPS ?
As far as I can remember, there are quite a number of games around, where when you die, you die. unless you saved earlier, but in this case, you know well that you are "cheating", and the reason you do it anyway is that if you had to replay the game up to that point, you could do it, but you wouldn''t discover anything new, so it makes sense to save/load.
But in an everchanging world, like an MMORPG, WTF is this artificial way of respawning ???
I am sure with a bit more thinking they could come up with something better, couldn''t they ? (hint hint, a better combat system where most of the time, you would end up incouscious, stolen from all your stuff, but alive ? see "Thoughness" thread)

thanks

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I seem to remember in the original Ultima Online when you died you had to wander around as a ghost, it really irritated me because no-one could see you and only people with the correct skills could even understand what you said.

-Mezz

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Well, I know it EverQuest, when you die you start with no items or money in your home town. However, you have a certain amount of time (usually hours) to go and find your corpse and take your stuff back. To make it even easier, they won''t let anyone else loot your corpse until you''ve looted it first. It really waters down dying IMO.

I think it''s handled in the same way in UO, though I can''t say, since I only played it twice before deciding it was utterly stupid .

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I think loss of stat points/items is in order for death, but permanent deah is bad in mmorpg. It is fine for people that have enough time to build/rebuild characters but not for the casual gamer.

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An idea (even though no-one was asking) I've had for an MMORPG would be to have the player go through some sort of hellish abyss when they die. Upon death, they would be "teleported" to an Underworld, wearing nothing but "what they're mama gave them", but retaining everything the character knows and remembers in terms of skills, etc. The Underworld would be insanely difficult, and players could of course suicide their characters if they didn't feel escaping was worth the effort, but for the persistent, it would be possible to fight your way through hell & back, and be "reborn" a la Gandalf, stronger than ever and w/ some distinguishing mark of their triumph. (an insignia on their forehead, an "aura" or something") It would neither kill off hard-earned characters nor would it treat death lightly, plus it would add oodles of "cool" factor to the gameworld. Whatchya think?

Edited by - Anonymous Poster. on September 3, 2000 12:51:57 PM

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mmmmh I like the idea, similar to the ghost concept, but this one would offer some interesting opportunitites for gameplay (since you wouldn''t have anything) ... it''s worth being developed more, methinks

youpla :-P

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That''s a great idea, AP. It would add very much to atmosphere too."See that guy ? He''s got the Sign of the Reborn ! Don''t mess with him ."

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I remember a MUD where if you died you came back as an undead. Which type depended on your level, and they all had rather severe limitations (mummies slowly rotted, vamps had to avoid all sunlight, zombies were slugs and I think they had their speech garbled by the host).

There were quests you could undertake to return to ''life'', but if you got killed a second time that was it - gone.

A decent compromise.

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In UO when you die you manifest yourself as a ghost right next to your corpes and wander about until you find someone nice enough to ressurect you or you find an NPC healer or Shrine that will ressurect you.
I''m not sure about how it works in games like EQ

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In EQ, when you die you arrive at your last bind point. You lose XP and you have none of your stuff, but you''re body stays for a good while and no one can loot it unless you give them permission.

When you first start you''re bound at the town you start in. If you have the spell, or if you find someone to cast it on you can get bound to other spots.

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster

I think loss of stat points/items is in order for death, but permanent deah is bad in mmorpg. It is fine for people that have enough time to build/rebuild characters but not for the casual gamer.

Thankyou, that''s something that i should have realised by now but haven''t. How easy it can be to overlook these aspects. Thanks

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

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Well, hey, thanks all
So that''s even more like a thought, all the concepts of Quake likes adapted to so called *coughcough*Role*cough*playing ...

God help us find something to change all this crap.

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Hmmm... I thought I was the only one who had thought of the idea of being sent to the Underworld when you die ...

Anyway, this is how I have implemented it in my game :

When the player dies, he or she is sent to the Wnderworld, with astral versions of their weapons, but no magical ability. Therefore, ignoring the development of melee fighting during the game is detrimental to your continued existence. You have to fight your way to the gates of the Underworld, and if you make it (which isn''t easy) you ''click'' back into your body so many hours later, wounded, but at least alive ...

It works well, and it keeps players from just building up magical ability and relying on it rather than good old-fashioned grunt.

Merrick

PS Some characters may be at home in the underworld and have less difficulty escaping, but will be penalised in the ''real'' world, by being unable to enter Holy sites or something ...

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Another docworthy mention Thanks anon...

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I like this idea of crawling out of hell more and more. But I am sure there are things to make it better.
First off, why have weapon skills, but not magic ?
IMO, great wizards have certainly more chance of fighting demons than a mere warrior. So there should be something else. Maybe base the stats of the player on his mental stats, mainly his Willpower (you WANT to live again), and his natural magical abilities (that is, his knowledge of ethereal/fantastic things).

I think all this would be a sort of dream sequence, and an opportunity for the player to redefine the character. Why does he want to go back, what''s so important that he has to live again, isn''t he well and comfortable here ? Oh yeah, I am also assuming that we would go with the idea of Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. purgatory would turn you into a ghost, condamned to look at what you are missing without a chance to go back, you would have to find a way, and a reason to be reborn. Hell would be an ordeal, relative to the beliefs of the character (a dwarf condemned to live in the forests with elves ?), that would have to be overcome in some way (has anyone seen a serie called Brimstone ), while Heaven would be the nicest of places, and you would again have to find a reason to go back on earth.
All this would be a very good way to make the *player* understand that death is not necessarily a bad thing (renewal of character), and it would allow for (I am sure) very good role playing sequences.
Imagine trying to talk your way out of Hell, dealing with the daemons that you are gonna give them more souls in exchange for yours ! ( an excellent in-character excuse for Pkilling )
Imagine meeting a guy ''marked'' as being reborn :"Aaaaah ! this is Wolgang the Unclean, the Twice Born, let''s run while we still have our legs !"

youpla :-P

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This netherworld idea kicks ass. Gonna hafta steal this one, too .

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Thx for all the positive comments, guys.

Pacman- at what I hear the going rate for ideas is, you owe me $0.00833 (dime a dozen, *natch*) So if that post was your$0.02. . .jeez, I need a new hobby.

ahw-Although I''ve abandoned the whole idea myself, I can see the argument for magic users haveing a better go at it than fighters. However, this idea was actually for a Genetic Breeding Tekken/RPG hybrid I was designing, (ask me sometime, its a doozy) so there was no "magic user" class. If I were to do this in an MMORPG, each class would have to have a pretty good chance of escaping in their own way *if* the player was extraordinarily powerful. After all, if any old shmoe could escape hell, don''t you think they''d beef up security?? *thhhbt* Anyway everyone would be a magic user if they had an easy time in the Underworld. I also like the idea of some chars being more comfortable there. . .mebbe more comfortable than they were in the Overworld? After all, ''tis better to rule in hell. . .}

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I think that if a player dies, the player is DEAD. (for single, the player can save in a "safe zone")

Why would PKing not be a problem? Be sensible. In a city there will be guards and police and such to kill YOU if you kill another person without cause. If you''re not in a city, alone with this guy...WHY ON EARTH DO YOU _TRUST_ HIM??? especially if you don''t know who the player (in real life) is! This is part of Role Playing you guys.... (Thats the other thing...People seem to play their characters to make their characters better at making their characters better at...etc. If you''re a theif what are you doing in a dungeon? If you''re a cleric why arn''t you in a temple?)

Though I am divided on whether or not to give the player time to get his stuff... about 60no-40yes...

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hehe C-Junkie what would a dead player do with stuff. A player shouldn''t be bound by location. As a programmer you still go to the grocery store or out to eat, but you are not necessarily a cashier or a waiter. A thief would go to the dungeon to pick locks and steal loot. They should use different tactics backstab sneak etc rather than full frontal attack & a cleric would go into dungeons to aid his comrades or if strong enough to rid the world of evil. I agree there should be different tactics but that is left to the player. The game should be more difficult to play a thief as a fighter - ie they should not be allowed to wear the same armor as a fighter and maintain their skill set of backstab & sneak.