"Can you really get that in a computer game ?"

If you use the computer game as a tool, rather than the core of your gameplay. By which I mean, keep the best elements of paper play -- have a DM, play with a group of friends, be able to add your own story elements, be able to design your character''s appearance. And let the computer handle the dirty work -- let it decide how strong the enemy is, how many hits it takes to kill, what other characters look like (through art), etc. Basically, use the program as a calculator and drawing board and do the rest of the work yourself.

I bought Vampire: Masquerade for one reason only. Because of the "Storyteller" option. I haven''t played used the "Storyteller" yet, but I really like the idea that I will be the "DM" of a level that I myself create, design, and plot. It will make the adventure more personal and, I''m betting, a lot more fun than the actual V:M game (that part I did play, and didn''t like).

If an RPG isn''t linear, why have it control the plot, the character arcs, and all the stuff that individuals can do so much better themselves? Just let the computer do what the average player can''t or doesn''t want to do: let it draw really great pictures for them, calculate the math involved in battles and other things, keep track of your inventory, and keep track of your enemies. But also allow the DM to change almost everything at will. ;-)

As far as I know a RPG has a Hero played by the player.

What''s a hero ?
Is it someone with a strong character ?
Is it someone with special powers ?
is it someone with a special background ?

Well I think it''s all of that and none at the same time.
We remeber heroes by the decision tehy made, by their character.
But before the character was a hero it wasn''t...

The hero is the people who face great opposition and reach his goal anyway.
Most of the time its goal is not personnal but is to help many people. (avoid saving the world I''m sick of saving it)
The encounters the character live change him, and create it''s character...

So what I try to explain is that a hero or a main character is build up during the game, not before nor after.
The player will create its character by the choices he makes, by the way he overcome the challenges.

So no need for a strong background except to fix the character in the world.
The character of the character will be build throughout the game ...

One solution to the landfishian (and many many designer) is to make some challenges as tests which purpose is only to see how the player overcome and to give him a new bit of character.
This can be a new way of moving, a new sentence he liked, something like that.

In game interactive character build up is the solution I found the best, and do you know where it comes from ?
Tabletops RPG...
(Early players actions are often used to generate the character behavior, any old GM should know that)

-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

quote:Original post by Ingenu

As far as I know a RPG has a Hero played by the player.

Uh oh, a sweeping generalization! Now I suppose we have to argue about whether the player must play a hero. Bonus points to the first person to come up with some examples where the player plays an anti-hero or something. In the relm of Adventure Game''s there''s the Leisure Suit Larry Series, but I can''t think of any RPGs off the top of my head.

MadKeithV : oh please ! Come on ! Did you read what was before the "you can''t get that on a computer" ???
OK, I didn''t formulate correctly : "Have you see that done on a computer game yet ? I think not"
Taht''s it ... I would *NEVER EVER* say that something can'' be done, because I am too much of a dreamer. Actually I think this could be easily done, and it''s a shame it hasn''t yet. But I guess this would seem useless to most people ? Or maybe they would love to creat really personal characters... has to be tested.

ingenu : interactive character build up.
I am not sure I understand what you are talking about here.
Are you refering to this idea that basically a hero get shaper by the events, ordeals, and other troubles he goes through ?
As well, your generalisation of player character = hero would accomodate particularly bad with MMORPG...
Where is the heroism when hundreds of people are supposed to be heroes ???
Personally I like to have bland characters that gradually take more and more depth and flavor through the story (so I suppose this is what you were refering to).
That''s the way I remember so vividly my character, through the different adventures he went through ("oh yeah, I got that scar when I got jailed, and this amulet if for the time I saved the Greif, and that one is when I was offered to join the Imperial guard ... " )

youpla :-P

quote:Original post by sunandshadow

Uh oh, a sweeping generalization! Now I suppose we have to argue about whether the player must play a hero. Bonus points to the first person to come up with some examples where the player plays an anti-hero or something. In the relm of Adventure Game''s there''s the Leisure Suit Larry Series, but I can''t think of any RPGs off the top of my head.

In Daggerfall, you had the option of being a "bad guy". You could be a thief or assassin as well as a hero. Although, I suppose that it does not count because I don''t think that you could finish the main quests by being a bad guy, only the little side-quests.

girl: I too bought Vampire for the Storyteller option, basically because it''s easier to play a computer game over the web than it is to get together and play P&P (and I liked the single player game, it actually had a story that mattered). I warn you, it is NOT easy to DM a chronicle, or even make locations for that matter. The tools NSI gives are lacking at best, because really the only way you can do what yo want is by JAVA SCRIPTING (AARRGGGHHH!!!!). Though really cool tools are coming out...

I would totally dig having a background story for a char. Even let the player select what kind of family they have, and then start them with it (orphan starts in village chaple, raised by priest, etc.). Hmmm back to the char creation drawing board.....

Sunandshadow, in Fallout, you can be a total dick and/or kill everyone. I''d call that "non-hero". Oh yeah, and Full Throttle (not an RPG).

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"What's the story with your face, son?!?"

quote:Original post by Landfish

Wavinator: Right though you are in the post, I thought you didn''t agree with me on the importance of writing in games? Did I convert you?

Hahaha. *Ahem* "Ladies and gentlement, Senator Landfish, I feel I must clarify my position..."

I''ve got no problem with stories in games. They can lend awesome color and setting, and strong sense of purpose to what''s going on. My problem comes when stories subsume and pre-empt gameplay. Then I come out swinging against the Aeris loving Squaresoft fanatics.

For example, I *loved* the Starflight games. Here''s a game where the writing made a difference. It was used in alien dialogs, description, and a pretty cool and somewhat sad backstory. But I didn''t get the impression that the creators were holding up their hand and saying, "we now interrupt this gameplay for an important piece of story."

Instead, story unfolded through logs and messages and dialogs. But this never got in the way of the *doing* and that is what kept me playing. (Contrast this with Adventure games, which have come to annoy me to no end!!!!!!)



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Just waiting for the mothership...