I always say that tabletop RPGs and CRPGs have more differences than similarities. There''s one exception. CHARACTER. In both of these genres, you''re writing a story for a character who will NOT be under your control. In this way, the two media are rather similar and hence often confuse when compared to traditional Prose. But even this is variable. In a tabletop, you have exceedingly little control over what your player''s character does, or even who his character is! In a CRPG, they can only work with what you give them. This is a good and a bad thing, like everything, right? So, notice something for me. Our tabletop characters are usually pretty deep, and our CRPG characters are pretty cardboard. Why? What can we do to fix this? ====== "The unexamined life is not worth living." -Socrates "Question everything. Especially Landfish." -Matt

Are you suggesting to come up w/ some sort of background for the player, or allow them to sort of construct one themselves?

Would the background directly effect the game or would it be more just some extra depth.

I know ADOM constructed a background information for you randomly, but it didn't have much direct effect to the game itself. Daggerfall let you determine what the reputation of different parts of society(nobles, criminals, etc) was toward you by answering questions about your character.



Edited by - Nazrix on September 12, 2000 6:19:22 PM

I think you run into trouble when you try to compete head to head with a live GM. A good one can pretty much work your character into just about any story.

But I notice that even GMs sometimes work predetermined elements into your character''s history for the sake of story. You see this most often in the setup of a campaign: Why are you here, what were you doing to get here, etc.

As far as deeper history goes, I wonder about letting the player choose from pre-scripted plot elements that are generalized enough to not give away the story. For instance, you could choose to be someone with a horrible secret past. Or you could be someone out to avenge the murder of a loved one.

Players would choose and maybe mix and match history elements, which are prescripted, and part of the fun would be in seeing how these elements would play out for different characters. The things you do to avenge a grudge as a wimpy noncombatant (but with sterling magical or computer hacking skills) would be different from that of a brawny fighter.

I think writers could have a field day with this, as they could make storylines deep and involving, and players couuld play through with more interesting choices.

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Nazzlie: I was being purposefully vague. It could be either. I think both should exist, to various degrees, though not always in the same game...

Wavinator: Right though you are in the post, I thought you didn''t agree with me on the importance of writing in games? Did I convert you?

the problem is that as long as the background story ahs no other purpose than say "hey look! a background story! That's a RPG !!! I swear!" then that's the only thing it'll be used for.
In ADOM, AFAIK, the background story gives you your beginning money, and as well you birthday gives you your starsign which s influencial. That's pretty much it.
In most games this is it (or let me know ?). In some, the bakground story will help you choose a character (useless but nice), in other it will shape your character (DarkLands, *excellent*, and not uselessly verbose).

In a P&P RPG, with a good system, and a good GM, the background story will be a source of inspiration. you are an orphan ? maybe you might discover what happened ? you are a druid, but where did you study druidism, what if you meet your old master, and what if he needs your help ? Does this yakuza whose life you saved one day, still remember his honor debt, and will he be thre when you need him ? etc.
The story will shape you character AND offer subplots and opportunities for some good roleplay. It add depth, rather than a coat of paint over our cardboard heroes...

how can we fix this ? By working on more complex characters in the first place (yes, that's a pleonasm).
I don't want my character to be an 8 integers and some other stuff structure. First I want a body, *my* body, with clothes, items, skin colors, stature, etc. That would be a good start. Then I want to be able to use this body and this brain of mine to do stuff. If I want to go in the woods and talk to animals, to collect herbs and such, because I am a druid, I'd like to be able to do it. If I am a fighter, I'd like to be able to practice my skill against my shadow, fencing my sword in the air, jsut because I can ... or playing against a friend with wooden swords ... etc
Then we can start wrrying about story depth, if it should be linear or open, and we an look about this in the other thread started on this forum

(edit)
Forgot that thing as well: quite amusingly, most CRPG tend to make characters look ALL alike when they raise and gain more experience. Because players, doing with what they are given, get all the 'best' items, the best armours, they all raise their stats to the maximum, and instead of having experienced heroes, worn out by the time, with scars and whatnot, you get an army of 100th level magic user sword master wearing full dragon plate armor and 2handed +10 sword of humanoid killing, and a bakpack of equally cloned material.

After 5 years of playing Warhammer (a P&P RPG), my once dwarf stable boy, was now a hero of the empire, savior of the Emperor's heir, killer of a Deon Lord of Slaanesh, he wore the amulet of the Knight panthers, his trusty 'Crimson', a two handed axe that helped him well at last (with this damned bonus against demons, that I thought would never serve a purpose other than sounding cool ...), he was still wearing the mail shirt and helmet from his beginning, even after finding a full plated magic armor, because full plate just wasn't his style, and anyway, you just can't fight as well in full scale, etc.
It was just not a lambda dwarven mercenary captain anymore

Can you really get that in a computer game ?

I think not

youpla :-P

Edited by - ahw on September 12, 2000 8:04:01 PM

quote:Original post by Landfish

Nazzlie: I was being purposefully vague. It could be either. I think both should exist, to various degrees, though not always in the same game...

Yeah, I figured as much. I thought I could trick you into being more specific.

Hah! I''m a moderator now! I need not be specific! Why, you ask? I don''t have to tell you!

Anyhoo, it''s not only RPGs that could benefit from character customizability... I intend to do it in my team''s FPS if we ever do it. Look at the design forum threads on the issue.

But what about games with very little customizability, because it would interfere with their carefully calibrated linear (ooh, dirty word) plots? I mean, Linear-story games have little or nothing to fear from giving the player a deep character to start with... the best Linear RPG I''ve ever played defined the hell out of the character...

So why do most games like that have loser''s like FFVII''s Cloud as main characters? That guy was about as deep as a wading pool...

Oh, man...the power's going straight to your head

Yeah, in a linear game, then the player should be very detailed and deep.

The more non-linear the game, the more I think either the player should get to choose his background or develop the character's personality as the game progresses...or both.

Edited by - Nazrix on September 12, 2000 9:12:26 PM

if you are doing a linear game it''s even easier !!!
Because at last, all those details about your past can be easily integrated by the writers you hired into the plot !
Your long lost sister became a nun in this town you have to go to, but you didn''t know; This sword your fathe gave you, saying that you would have to use it one day, well, now you jsut have to put it in the scenario, etc.
You can make much better characters if you don''t actually allow the player to choose them. But by giving the player much more details, it''s easier to put yourself in the PC shoes. That''s what happen when you play in RPG tournaments. I remember this game, where the GM gave us all our role half an hour before we started playing. BAsically, we all sat there, reading the roles, learning them, just like an actor would learn his role before going on stage ...

Landfish : can you say Final Fantasy ?

quote:Original post by ahw
Can you really get that in a computer game ?

I think not

It''s exactly that attitude that''s left the entire industry floundering for the past 15 years.




People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~