i don't have the epxertise of all of you guys, because i am a mac user and could never do anything on Linux systems, but i definetely have a couple of things to say.

usability is an issue when one entity wants to reach the mass market. that means the target is the least common denominator (does that exist in english?). cypher3d said the target is joe average, well the real target is the guy with accessiblity issues, who knows a few words of english, and just knows how to use a TV remote control. you still want to give that guy the possibility to do voice chat, play a cool game, or put a nice background on his computer screen without typing a make install command.

usability has never been an issue to most open source projects. open source developers are engineers, they aim to implement an algorithm they thought of, and that's all. making an interface or something readable outside the small circle of developers is well ... an option, because the priorities are performance, functionnalities, or code design issues.

there is a mentality that is like this among programmers : "hmm, what if i make this audio file writer with three different algorithms to choose from and five different speedrates ? that would be cool because the user has the liberty to use the soft with his own settings. and while i'm at it, i'll add this other code so that it includes xml files. and that other network functionnality too." well this thinking is wrong. because instead of giving the guy the "liberty" to compress an audio file with 35 different settings, you actually gave him an headache and you'll wonder why your soft is being used by just a couple of pHd holders. i'm in a favor of just making softs that does the damn job (thanks apple), user oriented from the beginning. and follows the thinking : "ok, our users need to listen to some music. ok, i'll write an OGG reader, HIDE the process and i will display a nice music icon. so the users just click the button and finished" there we go. no need to show him how much time the processor used to do the task, no need to ask wether you want it at 192kpbs or at 160, and so on ... and you'll be happy when your five-year old says thanks because he can by himself listen to music.

usabiblity will be an issue when OSS developers will work with some kind of pressure. this works in commercial entities. no usability, less clients. no usability, no business. hence the design teams at microsoft and apple.
now, where would that pressure come from in the OS model ? having known many programmers, i am convinced this would never come from the developers (well, unless they are educated fromthe beginning) , but from the outside. that means pressure from business entities, that means more interaction with the users, that means project leaders not 100% developers ...

the solution will then arise one day when OSS developers will work hand in hand with usability experts (themselves or external people) and make usability, ergonomics, accesiiblity a top priority.

i'd like to explain also why usability is an issue for those who are not convinced. usability gives you more users. a CLI interface gives you access to less than 5% potential market share. a "perfect" GUI à la apple gives you let's say 99% potential market share. that includes your grandma, a guy from namibia or a visually-handicapped person. i'm not just thinking in terms of business, these extra users brings you more knowledge, more brain power, more rich interactions. i know for example a guy who develops programs by using xcode and the accessibility functions. and he is nearly blind. can't see beyond 20 centimeters. a voice reads the commands. he talks, there is voice recognition. he can also use keyboard commands. but he is one of the most imaginative mathematician i know of and gets some quality computer programs. is that possible with OSS softs ? also think about people from other domain : botanists, historians, mecanician, salesmens, physicians, etc ... thanks to usability, they can use a soft and contribute by bringing their solutions and original way of thinking to the whole business.


now oluseyi (weird pseudo, is that nigerian by the way?), back to your thread,
oss = technical innovation. oss developers have no clue whatsoever of usability.

finally, time for some personal and biaised comments :
1. Open source softs are not cool. iLife is cool. garageband is cool. yeah it's proprietary. but i don't care how they made it. i prefer creating music than looking at some 1M code. and i don't mind paying for it. the guys worked hard for the product anyway.
2. flarelocke, give the guy a break, you are thinking typos and using "i" is a big problem, i'm thinking you are too uptight. no point in writing an essay about the uses of lists and pronouns. do you want the guy to spend one whole day writing in front of a computer instead of going out and having a life.

[Edited by - 2xp on August 5, 2004 11:18:15 AM]

some sort of unreadable post i wrote there
can someone tell me how to format a post, like put a sentence in italics, bold, and the quote function ?

Quote:Original post by 2xp
some sort of unreadable post i wrote there
can someone tell me how to format a post, like put a sentence in italics, bold, and the quote function ?

Use HTML for formatting, [quote] [/quote] for quoting

ok thanks well in fact i discover it's with brackets [something] not with the <something> as in HTML

ok, now, i hope flarelocke won't flame because i'm not capitalizing my sentences and not using proper english

Quote:Original post by 2xp
now oluseyi (weird pseudo, is that nigerian by the way?)...

Oluseyi is my first name. Please don't call it weird, it makes me hostile. Yes, it is a Nigerian name (Yourba, to be specific), and it means "God has done this."

Quote:...back to your thread,
oss = technical innovation. oss developers have no clue whatsoever of usability.

I don't think that is inherently the case. I think it's a conditioned response, because the majority of successful Open Source software has been infrastructure - kernels, OSes, system utilities, web servers, programming languages, IDEs, compilers - and because the iconic figures are predominantly insular, seflish and self-aggrandizing individuals like RMS. Or even ESR. Ever read his A Portrait of J. Random Hacker? Utter garbage, IMO, because it structurally discountenances many of us while promoting a xenophobic, monolithic identity rooted in limited experience.

On the other hand, he has two very interesting articles on the very issue at hand, The Luxury of Ignorance: An Open Source Horror Story and The Luxury of Ignorance: Part Deux.

Remember, this is the guy who invented/coined/advocated the term "Open Source", founded the Open Source Initiative, and continues to catalog and explain the elements of Open Source software and culture as well as their ramifications. I think he's worth listening to.

OpenUsability.org, a project aimed at facilitating the collaboration of Open Source developers and usability experts. They apparently have created software for basic usability data collection.

Quote:Original post by Cipher3D
Couldn't there be, you know, something from The Matrix, where Linux and Windows coexist `peacefully` (relatively). Windows can be the desktop operating system, while Linux does the "behind-the-scenes" stuff, like server hosting, etc.

This is currently the situation in a large number of corporations. The fact that .NET, and particularly ADO.NET, runs on Linux thanks to Mono (and dotGNU) means that even ASP.NET doesn't require a Windows server.

Quote:Of course, then again, Windows doesn't really coexist with anything...

Actually, it coexist with some things. But that's beside the point. The real problem is a socio-cultural one, the fact that neither camp's vociferous advocates are interested in a compromise.

The notion of a homogenous computing environment, server to desktop to palmtop to mobile, is a hallucinogenic pipe dream. Interoperability and data portability are absolutely critical, simply because no one system can meet all possible user needs.

Try saying that on SlashDot.

I don't understand how people can make statements like "all OSS have bad interfaces", "all OSS lack innovation" etc. It doesn't make sense. Anybody can write OSS. Anybody can write closed source software. Anybody can write both OSS and closed source software if they want. The license choice does not directly effect things like the interface or the innovation of it, only the program itself determines this.

Most of my work is closed source because it wouldn't be much use to other people, but if using a good GPL component would benifit me I then have to open the source code to everybody. This choice does not magically make my project non-innovative or give it a bad interface; it's just a license.

I don't agree with sweeping statements like "OSS lack innovation" as anybody can write OSS if they wanted and it does not entail that they lack innovation. Microsoft are the most successful commericial software company and the vast majority of their ideas come from buying other companies and just copying ideas too.

Look at these forums for example. Many posters aggressively state that they will never open their source to anybody but yet everyone is trying to make yet another boring RPG, FPS, MMORPG etc. game.