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Ajain

MMO idea i might make...if i can find some1 to help when i kno enough )

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Ajain    100
constructive criticism please... name: "Life on the thorns of a rose", "off the beating path", or "circle of betrayers" (ya...its a working title...) game type: medevil/pre-history magical MMO idea: There would be 2 massive mods (me and a friend of mine, both of us r learning C++ rapdily [i am also expirementing w/ visual basic and html but not to help this]) ...each would have a "heaven" you could say. The idea of the game is that there is no right answer. it would be one group against the other group against evil... karma: there would be a karma infostructure as follows: good 1000-990 pure 989-700 acceptable 699-500 tainted 11-499 evil 0-10 if you kill a creature/other player (see below) the karma would change as follows: good => your karma - 100 pure => your karma - 50 acceptable => your karma -10 tainted => your karma + 10 evil => your karma + 50 ...there would be no evil leader... you would enter the game (for the first time) as an "abandoned child" on the outskirts of a town...you would have "divine grace" (can't kill or be killed but can train) for 24 hours (RL) or until you leave the town...after that you are considered an "adult"...in order to stop godly charachters from forming, each charachter has a "life span" of about 3 years (its a long time, for those of you don't play MMO's) and then they "die" (they are an entity on another plain so you can still play them but you cannot enter the living plain [acception below]). you can have an "heir" (didn't figure out how i could rig this and not have an "M" rated game ;)) who would take over some of your stats, magic, and all of your items. there would be no "logging off" of the game. your charachter just "sleeps". when you sleep you get energy back and when u run out of energy you HAVE TO sleep. if you have to "leave the game" but you have energy left you can set up a list of things for your charachter to do automatically (except no form of training or fighting) but if/when your charachter runs out of energy they drop and go to sleep where they are (you can put a "go to bed" function in there so they DO actually go to bed). While you are asleep you can be killed or looted or both...if you are in your house and someone loots your body they get a "town offense" against them and if you are killed they get a "country offense" against them...each town has a "town stone" (placed by mods) which, when touched lists off players with offenses against them (looting people's bodies, killing people in non-duel situations). Each country has a "country monument" which acts the same way. if a crime is committed out of town borders (namely: looting a living body) you can't do anything unless u see them...if a crime is committed out of country borders (namely: killing at sea, etc.) you can't do anything about it except take it into ur own hands. Politics: EVERYTHING except the fundamentals will be player run (or so we hope)...players can set up their own gov. if they want and choose how to deal with a player doing something to another player. There would be no global channels with which to announce "SUCH AND SUCH IS A SCAMMER!!!"...fan websites would be frowned upon...the point of hte game is "ITS THE REAL WORLD BUDDY, DON'T KNOW IT, TOO BAD" or "ITS THE REAL WORLD BUDDY...you figured it out? good!" there would be a global mod channel and "magical stones" in each "right" side's bases as well as the 16th circle of (don't want to have to retype post due to censorship so u fill it in!!!) death would be perminant. except for the entity thing...then u can't be killed...(except mod bans ;)) WELLS and PLAINS: there would be 3 wells and 2 plains. the plain of hte living and the plain of the dead...the wells would be 1) from the plain of the living to hte plain of the dead/plain of the dead to plain of the living (opens 1 time/RL week...miss it? too bad! there would be a system though, where it opens up 3 hours later each week so you don't need to get up early or stay up late) 2) main continent to "he (fill in blanks...censorship -.-)" continent which would simply be training...it would open one time every day (pushing back 3 hours each day...once every 27 hours) 3) "broken well"...it would push you to some random place...always open...it could push a living dude into the dead plain or a nwb into the other continent...or it could be ur ticket to the other continent if u missed the other well ======================================================================================================== that is my game idea...what do u think? did any1 actually read all of it? -Ajain [Edited by - Ajain on August 4, 2004 1:55:39 PM]

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Ajain    100
it wsa shorter than i thought...i can post the "moves" idea i had...

moves (players make):
you would make them yourself. you would be given a "stick man" with joints ingame and you would make "3 step moves", "4 step moves", "5 step moves", or "2 step moves"...you would just arrange the skeleton and press "save step"...you could then see a rough out (there would be an automatic animation)...there would also be "pre-made moves" made by the mods and that u have at birth...you could also "share" moves with other players...rude moves would be deleted when seen ;)

as for the number of customizable move slots...i think me and my friend said 22 or something...you would program F1 through F12 with a move each (number keys too but you would be writeing over the pre-made moves)

that took shorter than i thought

-Ajain

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Ajain    100
forgot a few other things...

races:

human
elf
dwarf
trollic (ever read the wheel of time series? it would be under a different name tho...we r pretty sure this is copywritten)
Giant
Angle (unlocked after the first time you reach nirvana on an account) [life span of 5 years in all]
god (unlocked after the fifth time you reached nirvana on an account) [lives forever]

nirvana--your karma would be taken 1/2 of and that would be added to the automatic 500 given to your heir at birth...once you have a charachter that dies with a "good" status you reach nirvana and can play as other creatures)

crafts:
another thing we wanted was a craft system where you can do anything with anything...or try to...we wanted a huge stat list and a huge craft list and a huge item list...still in the works though...

that is all i'm saying about the game idea me and my friend had...what do u guys think?

-Ajain

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netflow    150
Second post today I have made about the exact same thing.

Question: Why on earth are you thinking of making a game that is following the exact same theme as every other online game out there? Do you purposefully want as much competition as possible? Why not come up with an original idea and theme instead of yet another medeval MMO.. You just have to look at it logically, when you have sony on one end spending countless millions on EQ2, why would anyone want to play a game that follows the same basic plot/mechanics which is made by a couple of guys in their basement?

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orionx103    138
Quote:
Original post by netflow
Second post today I have made about the exact same thing.

Question: Why on earth are you thinking of making a game that is following the exact same theme as every other online game out there? Do you purposefully want as much competition as possible? Why not come up with an original idea and theme instead of yet another medeval MMO.. You just have to look at it logically, when you have sony on one end spending countless millions on EQ2, why would anyone want to play a game that follows the same basic plot/mechanics which is made by a couple of guys in their basement?


Second time I've responded to you're cutting down of people's ideas. This time I'll go for a different route.

You're over-analyzing this. You're saying, "It's Medievil, so it's a copy of every other Medievil-themed game." Well, there's certain things about a game that you're over-looking. Game isn't just setting, you know. A game is not determined but where it takes place. I learned in school that there are several parts of a story: major characters, minor characters, setting, plot, and I think others that escape me right now. Basically, setting's only a fraction of the whole.

Here's a thought: In stead of being like everyone else, who would easily cut down Ajain's idea, why don't you try to encourage him? Stop trying to stomp on the dude's dream of a game because of mere similarities.

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
Is this what they call being original now? Instead of just steaaling ideas from Tolkein, now your stealing ideas from robert jordan too?

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Ajain    100
actually all races are in mytholigy somewhere or another...tolkien didn't make up elfs...or dwarfs...and notice I don't have hobbits ;)

as for the game design that is nothing like any of tolkien or jordan's books...the "city stone" idea along with automatic offenses and the concept of "sleep" may have been used before but I certainly haven't seen them in a game...

the only idea I took from either was (from RJ) the trollic...

-Ajain

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Nahoopii    284
Well now, lets be honest.. There really isnt a whole lot new to this type of game. I agree we shouldnt ruin the poor kids dream, but lets not hype him up over mediocrity..

I like the ideas youve put forth.. The idea of nirvana and multiple lives is interesting to say the least. Maybe on your next post you could expand on that. Where instead of explaining the reprocussions from killing a good or bad, what is the motivation for players to be either? New moves/skills/spells? Different areas? Different resources?

Once you have compiled such a list, be honest with yourself. In your list, is there really enough available for either type (good or bad) that will hold the players interest long enough to play? Its easy to come up with an idea for a MMORPG, as these games are the closest to mimicing real life, thus we have the greatest grasp for these types of games.. But most players who play these games will put 100+ hours into them. Ask yourself, is reaching nirvana, and starting over really going to make enough available to the player to have them invest that kind of time? I think this is why in most MMORPGs, we have on character that grows on and on.. because its discouraging to have to start from scratch, which seems to be the premise of the game..

Also, if there arent enough advantages to being bad, what youll have are thousands of players being good, which then removes any battle of good vs evil, in which case, it might as well be a single player game..

Keep it up, add some more details, and give us a little substance to critic.. What we have here are the bare bones to your game.

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serratemplar    1656
Before I try to explain to you why you should put MMO game programming in the back of your brain, I will honestly offer some truly constructive criticism.

Why on earth would an evil person *gain* karma for killing someone? The way your scale looks (1000 = good, 0 = bad) the more karma you have, the better person you are. What you're saying is if you're good and you kill someone, that's bad. But if you're BAD, and you kill someone, that's GOOD. Said that way, it almost makes sense...but when an evil person kills someone, they actually move CLOSER to the good side of the spectrum.

So basically to achive true neutrality in karma, you must kill as many player characters as possible.

I don't think that'll fly.

Now, here's something that you may not appreciate. If you are only just learning C++, there is absolutely no way you are going to write an MMO. The scope of such a project is beyond insane for a group of any people numbering fewer than two dozen, and all of them need to be hyper-motivated (or decently paid) and very well experienced in whatever programming language(s) you'll be using. Graphics engine, server security, server stability, sound recording, music composition and recording, integration of music into the game, design for non-player foes and characters, and...well, there is an article on this site that may help you.

Read this article

It talks about MMOG considerations and gives a good feeling on just how complicated the project that you're proposing is.

Please take it from me, as I may be one of the politest people when it comes to cautioning against this sort of thing: if you are *serious* about programming games, well you have my respect: start with Tetris. If you want nothing more than to make a humungous world that you and your friends can run around in and fight bad guys, play a table-top RPG. You can expand the scope of those games so quickly that they would certainly meet your desires.

I sincerely hope you read the article and take it to heart. Don't be discouraged. Just understand that you likely won't be a part of an MMOG constructing team until you've got at least a masters in CompSci and can do dot-products in your head.

Good luck.

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serratemplar    1656
In addendum, I don't believe *every* player character should start out as an "abandoned child". Quite frankly, I don't see how you could substantiate that many abandoned children unless of course

1. this is a table top rpg and you've got four to six players who are linked together for this reason
2. something seriously awful has recently transpired in this world.

I guess #2 might fly. But in any case, please read that article in my previous post.

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DesignerGuy    127
well, first a few comments before we get to the game, shall we?

Robert Jordan rocks! Of course there are parallels between him and Tolkein. The thing I love about his writing is that he's shameless about taking known symbols and using them to make his world better - he doesn't try to hide it, he does it for a good reason( King Arthur and Yin-Yang are my favorite two )

Ajain, the quote you used about defending the right to say it...I don't remember the exact wording, but yours is wrong. Also it was said by Voltaire. Only one of the bigger names in history... :)

..............

Now on to the game-relateds

I wouldn't worry about programming the thing. I'd start with tetris as far as programming goes, especially as you are just learning C++ - I'm not nearly good enough of a coder to do an MMO, that's why I have friends to put my design into a game.

Get all of the concept thoroughly done, have your bible, and then look to see who can code it. Concepts last forever. There may be similar games out there or coming out, but if you have good gameplay, and good code, your game will at least find a niche market. As far as game clones go, how many FPS are there out there? how many FF games? how many "traditional" feel RPGs? ( or action-adventure posing as RPG -- look at me, I have magic! That means I'm an RPG....bullshit. )

Good environmentals and excellent design are all you need to have followers. That's all it takes to make a great game. Now any other things you can do well only make your game better.

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DesignerGuy    127
also, please never use those "working titles" you put up.

They're terrble and cliched( except perhaps the first one, which is a good poetic phrase that's probably been used before, but a a terrible title for a game ). At least spell them correctly.

None of those fit an MMO - they might by some stretch of the imagination, work for a single player, but never for a multi-player.

---------------

Just some thoughts...

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Ajain    100
New title idea: "An Illusion of Innocence"

...i'll take on the other stuff post by post:

netflow:
Quote:
Question: Why on earth are you thinking of making a game that is following the exact same theme as every other online game out there? Do you purposefully want as much competition as possible? Why not come up with an original idea and theme instead of yet another medeval MMO.. You just have to look at it logically, when you have sony on one end spending countless millions on EQ2, why would anyone want to play a game that follows the same basic plot/mechanics which is made by a couple of guys in their basement?


you have either
1] never played an MMO for more than 3 months (if you did it was either UO, runescape, EQ, or some other game where there is no form of game-wide community)
2] never been scammed on an MMO...if u have even played one...

the idea of new MMO's is to have a clean slate but try to give people a game they will play for a long time too...there is more there than just a game...

------------

Nahoopii
Quote:
I like the ideas youve put forth.. The idea of nirvana and multiple lives is interesting to say the least. Maybe on your next post you could expand on that. Where instead of explaining the reprocussions from killing a good or bad, what is the motivation for players to be either? New moves/skills/spells? Different areas? Different resources?


there was something I left out b4...there will be no levels and no indication of how good (not alignment...good meaning well made), balanced, terrible, or unbalanced your charachter is...the only thing that might be able to give a faint indication is age and the aura around your charachter (the idea was that when ur charachters alignment is "evil" they will get a darker aura for how evil they are [but it will always be transparent]...when they are good they will get a lighter glow)

the only new moves/skills will be those made by the charachter (although you may get "flexibility" or something like that that determines how outrageous these moves would be)...as for spells...we haven't decided completely but we want to have the four elements and have them be mixable (getting close to rj there but elemental magic has always been a big thing in D&D and all other table top RPGs...rj didn't come up with that one...)...

different areas...we (my friend and I) had decided that there would be "ancient ruins" that are infested with demonds (who also have the one-death thingy so you can irradicate demonds) but other than that it is up to staffers and mods to continue the story by building "temples" and leaving them to rot and the such...there will be no restrictions on places...the idea is freedom to die...

resources...we will have silver, gold, copper, and tin...they will be mixable (copper + tin = bronze...there must be more in there too) but, again, there will be no limits (but the higher skills you put in stuff like that the better quality the metal you find and thus the stronger/better the weapon/armor/item you make out of them)

Quote:
Once you have compiled such a list, be honest with yourself. In your list, is there really enough available for either type (good or bad) that will hold the players interest long enough to play? Its easy to come up with an idea for a MMORPG, as these games are the closest to mimicing real life, thus we have the greatest grasp for these types of games.. But most players who play these games will put 100+ hours into them. Ask yourself, is reaching nirvana, and starting over really going to make enough available to the player to have them invest that kind of time? I think this is why in most MMORPGs, we have on character that grows on and on.. because its discouraging to have to start from scratch, which seems to be the premise of the game..


...flight...angel is the new class that you get...then you can fly and it is something of a hybrid (without disadvantages from any sides...just general disadvantages)...after reaching nirvana 5 times you get god and get ALL speels, ALL skills, ETERNAL life, FREEDOM to go between plains, and a few (like, 10) super spread out spells that can kill any demon within, say, 5 ingame miles in any direction...also, as for replay value, we would have at least 15 different places to be "born" on, eventually we hoped we could get up to at least 5 mirrors meaning that, because the world would be shapeable by the players, that is up to 75 re-play places...or so we hoped...in reality i doubt there will be more than 7 places and, if even this many, 2 mirrors...that is still 14 though!

Quote:
Also, if there arent enough advantages to being bad, what youll have are thousands of players being good, which then removes any battle of good vs evil, in which case, it might as well be a single player game..


you get to go to hell...;)...hell is going to be like super training with "corrupt" items that are pretty much super items...also, with a "bad" alignment you can controle demonds...because there are no "good" creatures that are outside of towns (or atleast good creatures that are "good" ;)) you can't really have a following that will protect you outside of towns if you are good, whereas, if you are "evil" you can recruit demonds (enslave really) that will do your bidding...thus, if you are strong enough and evil enough you could, potentially, raid a town of good people...

---------------

serr:
Quote:
Why on earth would an evil person *gain* karma for killing someone? The way your scale looks (1000 = good, 0 = bad) the more karma you have, the better person you are. What you're saying is if you're good and you kill someone, that's bad. But if you're BAD, and you kill someone, that's GOOD. Said that way, it almost makes sense...but when an evil person kills someone, they actually move CLOSER to the good side of the spectrum.


it isn't so much doing an evil deed to kill someone as a noble dead of "ridding the world of them" ;)...if your good and kill someone good thats bad...but if your good and rid the world of some bit of evil thats good...and vice versa...if your bad and kill someone good then you become badder...but if your evil and kill someone evil people then you are redemming yourself (although there will be hopefully some unbalance where if you are extremely good and kill someone else extremely good they were nearly your alignment so it isn't QUITE as bad but it is still pretty bad)...also, we hoped to set up a "duel" system where you could duel someone and not get karma penalties for killing them...

Quote:
Graphics engine, server security, server stability, sound recording, music composition and recording, integration of music into the game, design for non-player foes and characters, and...well, there is an article on this site that may help you.


graphics engine---we don't know...perhaps ...allegro was it... one of those sorts of libraries...

server security, stability---we have no idea...that is where we would have to recruit someone when we know enough or read the 1000 page manuels and take notes...or take a course if there is such a thing...we could find a way probably...

music---not all MMO's have music...my evidence? astonia III again...if ours would it would either be written, recorded, and played by me on the piano or else made by some sort of bad midi writer then converted to a wav sound file that people would probably just turn off and listen to MP3's behind it...as for sound effects there are plenty of places out there you can find them (smaller sites) for free that they would probably just let you mention them in the credits and put a mini banner up in a frame on the hoepage

integration--we aren't sure what we're going to use...probably another free library...

design for NPFs and NPCs--are you talking about the graphics or the AI? the AI is another place we would recruit but the graphics (we would probably use a free model and edit it for our needs and then give it a new skin and make sure that flew by the maker of the origional)...we would probably edit the models with milkshape (the only thing we might pay for a full version of!) or the free maya 5 but you can't use that for commercial things like this would be so...

Quote:

In addendum, I don't believe *every* player character should start out as an "abandoned child". Quite frankly, I don't see how you could substantiate that many abandoned children unless of course

1. this is a table top rpg and you've got four to six players who are linked together for this reason
2. something seriously awful has recently transpired in this world.

I guess #2 might fly. But in any case, please read that article in my previous post.


not everyone would be an abandoned child...there WOULD be a small amount of abandoned children...

7% +/- of new charachters would be abandoned children
23% +/- would wake up in an ally or forest with "no recolection of what just happened" and "a bump on their head"
50% would be children of people who had decided to make an extra heir (the slack would be picked up by NPC families)
20% +/- would appear from "a different, unknown plane" infront of a well/portal...these would probably be in teh middle of a city...

make more sence?

-Ajain

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Ajain    100
Quote:
Original post by redmilamber
I also suggest you have a look at "How to build an MMOG" on Stratics Central:


But, all that aside, I do like the basic idea. It's just htat you need to recognize that it's a small fraction of enough of an idea to make a game around.


..."no right or wrong way"...helbreth...wasn't helbreth that way? 2 "villages" at war...

and how far can you really take good/evil w/o making it really dramatic and getting rid of all the non-soap-opera-watching people?

-Ajain

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redmilamber    253
Quote:
Original post by Ajain
..."no right or wrong way"...helbreth...wasn't helbreth that way? 2 "villages" at war...


Yeah, that's one that came and went. I kept hearing it was "doing much better in Korea", but even the Korean domain disappeared off the net for long periods. I think they started again with a sequel using the same name but a rewrite?

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Nahoopii    284
I gotta say it.. Your replies just dont do it for me.. You really think that playeres would invest that kind of time only to have the option of flying around? Between 2 planes? Where in one plane there are only players who have previously died, and havent started their new lives yet with the reborn selves? Why would I want to do that? Why would anyone play on the other plane anyway? Isnt the point to start again in the first place? I understand that players would be attached to their older more established selves, but now you are only contradicting the original idea for your game!

I guess that something I hate about forums like this.. If you constructivly critisize someones work, instead of that person taking it seriously, it seems that they always scurry around for the most immediate and applicable answer..

So Ajain, the resources you named off dont have anything to do with being good or bad, or how many times youve been reborn.. Tin to me on my first go round with the game, is still going to be Tin on my last.. (which ironically would probably be within the same go round anyway)

Let me ask you like this then.. Whats the difference between me starting the game, and me having been through 2 games lives with my character, and starting for the third time.. I get to fly? (well yippee)..Honelstly buddy (remember this is someone who did at one point have an interest) its just not enough.. At least, not enough to conversate about here in the boards.. at least.. not yet..

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kevmo    205
I doubt this will be taken to heart, but I will say it anyway.

Put dreams of making a MMO on the back burner for the time being. Resolve to make a game, only one with a much smaller scope. Perhaps start with a 2D action game with a similar setting that you wanted for your MMO. If you succeed in this, you could try making a single player RPG. Continuing in this venture, continue to create larger games, probably recruiting help from others along the way. Learn from your mistakes.

I suggest this so you don't jump headfirst into a large project and get overwhelmed by details, because regardless of your intentions that is what will happen, and if you are like 99% of the people in the world you will lose interest and the project will never be completed.

Swallow your pride and realize that you will have the most chances at accomplishing your dreams by starting small and working up from there.

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serratemplar    1656
I presume you didn't read the article I posted. I do recommend it once more though.

And I recommend Dungeons and Dragons until you've programmed a tetris clone.

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DesignerGuy    127
I disagree.

Hoping to make a huge MMO that everybody will love is ridiculous, of course.

But.

I wouldn't say give it up. I'd say take it in perspective. There's a lot of code that goes in to an MMO, and you'll need a really good coder to do it. When you have a coder, then they have to do what? Networking, animation, lighting, water, physics, terrain, objects, particle effects, AI, a terrain editor and probably a lot more stuff before you can start adding content. Keep up design for the MMO, just as a second priority to games which you can throw together to build up a code base for all of the necessaries. For example( off the top of my head ) a 3d tetris clone that uses cool lighting. Making that would mean practice with lighting, 3d, input. That's good. Then, when you think you have the code/experience to tackle an MMO, make it small! seriously start with one guy running around on a field with music in the background. This is assuming you've got a modeler by that point and a composer. Build from there. For a start, probably you only want one town with a surrounding field. See how long that takes you, make it fun within itself, and then you'll have something to show.

Just my take. I'm sure I'll be yelled at. I think it's more appealing than "make tetris forever" - at least you're getting a little more done. Of course, if you have trouble with making games to utilize MMO code, then you've got a long way to go.

hope I help.

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