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HART

What is fun? (MMORPG)

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HART    121
ive played alot of of big MMORPGs out there, AO DAoC SWG L2 COH. i like these types of games but most of them have only one thing that really makes them a good game. in AO i liked the PvP compbat and the ability to "twink". SWG had a good skill based system. and so on and so on. one thing that i didnt like about these games though, is the grind. Im beginning a project, i know that alot of people decide to do there own MMORPG because they think they have the best ideas, but i want to give it a go anyway. I want my game to have features that people like though, and i want to exclude things that people dont like. so my question to you is, what do you like about an mmorpg? what do you not like in mmorpg? do you have any suggestions for a new feature in a mmorpg my goal for this game is for it to be fun, and exciting. realism is not such a big goal, i just want the game to be fun

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Telastyn    3777
I like MMORPGs without people.

Seriously. So much game design needs to be done around keeping players from ruining others' fun or from exploiting the game... And it pretty much is never enough.

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HART    121
Quote:
Original post by Telastyn
I like MMORPGs without people.

Seriously. So much game design needs to be done around keeping players from ruining others' fun or from exploiting the game... And it pretty much is never enough.


MMORPGs without people are called RPGs. RPGs are fun for people who dont want other people to interfere with their game. MMORPGs have interaction with other people. this includes nice people, and not so nice people. the fun part of MMORPGs for me, is being able to be effected by other players, and being able to effect them. IMO RPGs withough the multi player part are boring because you are only able to effect a world full of NPCs, which isnt very interesting to me.

this got me thinking though and i think the MMOPRG im writing should have something implemented so that players can really effect the online world around them.

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Lupus83    122
Unfortunately, most (all?) MMPORPG's follow the simple equation: free speech + anonymity == asshole. 60% of the players in an online game will be jackasses. That takes a lot of the fun out of it imo.

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HART    121
so what would be a way to deal with assholes? how can we give them more consequences for theyre actions? generally in real life assholes arnt welcome around places where people are ie citys. what is a way to make assholes more of outcasts from society?

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Waverider    169
Fun is what you want to play.

It's even better if you're a game developer and you make a game you want to play.

I don't think there is any way in an MMORPG to make aholes pay a price that they can't exploit to make innocents pay. Case in point: Some FPS servers will kick a player for killing a teammate. So what do the griefers do? They take one shot at you so that you'll kill them and get kicked. Griefers are among the most resourceful of troublemakers. If they weren't resourceful, they wouldn't bother being griefers.

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Thermodynamics    443
Well before this thread becomes a MMORPG rant, I would like to add something that I would like to see implemented at some point.

Crafting- New items. Give the player a set of resources preferably a lot and then left the make items however they want.

For example: If a person wants to make a pen that has a pencil sticking out of the bottom of it - let them. Even if it requires nailing/glueing two objects together let it be done.

This would of course require a good physics model. Other wise you would have people creating objects so long that they couldn't lift them.

mehhh enough rambling for tonight.

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fierywater    120
In my opinion, a good MMORPG relies more upon the variety of activities than anything else. Freedom is key for my enjoyment. Also, I don't want to have to sit for hours performing repetitive activities to gain skill in something that's useless until mastered. I hate leveling with a passion; in my opinion, and this is only my own, a character should be able to reach his utmost potential skillwise in less than a week of playtime. I know those are basically fragmented thoughts, but it's all I could think of at the time.

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HART    121
ok, i have ideas about how to solve some common dislikes people have with mmorpgs, but i dont really know if i can post them on the web. what i mean is, will people steal my ideas? i dont want to sound selfish by hogging my ideas. and i dont want to sound snoody, as in, "my ideas are the best and people will want to steal them." but i would kinda like to design my game with the intention of releasing the new ideas with the game. im at the beggining of the design process right now and this is part of my research, right now im trying to find out why people like MMORPGs and what they dont like about them. so if you could let me know if ide be putting my ideas at risk by posting them on this thread, that would be great.

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HART    121
here are some things i can tell you without giving away the hole idea. i have figured out a way to eliminate grinding. do people like grinding though? this is what i need to know. i figured out a way to get rid of it, but if people like it i can put it back in. i figured out a way to make it so that casual gamers can keep up with power gamers, levelwise that is, not equipment wise.

here is the bombshell though. permadeath is one of the main features of this game. i feel it is a necessary step forward for mmorpg's. it gives concequences for action. it lets people really role play there character. you can choose to be a hated criminal or a hero.

permadeath is my way of dealing with the asshole problem. as i see it now, people like to be jerks because its fun. honestly. but if people could also be a hero, and hunt down the jerks, i think there would be a balance of good guys and bad guys. bad guys would be disliked amoung the community, they would be outcasts not welcomed in citys. but good guys would be welcomed as heroes for risking theyre life to kill bad guys, and as such people would probly help them by giving them discounts to items and such.

please give feedback on all of the topics posted here and not just permadeath. the topics included: grinding, keeping powergamers the same level as casuals, and permadeath.

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Telastyn    3777
Heh!

So, people can not play your game, and be the same level as everyone else. Or they can play your game, and die; starting the not playing all over again.

I mean, perhaps I'm missing something terribly essential, but MMORPGs have had "karma" before. Good guys can PvP without consiquence and bad guys can not go to cities. What ends up happening is a few bad guys get so good or so much stuff they just sit outside the cities killing everyone with uberstuff only they have access to. [as I assume the uber-weapons won't be in the newbie spawn area...]

Permadeath has never, ever been an asshole solution. It's only been a tool they can wield with great savagery.


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HART    121
if an asshole can do that in a permadeath world, than i applaud him. but you see being a asshole is so much more dangerous because you are hated. people will put bounties on your head and you will constantly be risking sending your character back to ground zero. and like i said before. i think permadeath opens up a whole new RP element to the game.

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OmniBrain    148
With a single player RPG I try to beat the game. When I have solved the big task, I am done.

With MMORPG's you will not have the finite task, so the game is infinite, and players tend to pick their own targets or will leave to the next game.

If players can't change anything happening in the world (i.e. that evil fortress is just around to be stormed and to kill the big master boss, and 30 minutes later all respawns) it will get boring soon.
At least you have to add some Player vs Player to become the best gladiator, or Clan vs Clan to keep the high leveled chars involved.


The stupid player killers lurking around outside and killing every other player getting there is easy handeled too:
you let people play on your server for no fee: kick them.
people pay to play: it is their right to do what pleases them (and hope some other players get strong enough to kick them).

Btw, I don't think these kind of players trust each other enough to have a chance to stand against a well organized attack from all those anoyed other gamers. (If one lvl 50 char can stand against 50 lvl 1 chars, the game isn't well designed in my eyes)

my 2 cents

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fierywater    120
Quote:
Original post by HART
if an asshole can do that in a permadeath world, than i applaud him. but you see being a asshole is so much more dangerous because you are hated. people will put bounties on your head and you will constantly be risking sending your character back to ground zero. and like i said before. i think permadeath opens up a whole new RP element to the game.
I've thought about whether an MMORPG should have permadeath, but if our hypothetical asshole wants to be one, he still can be. If you've eliminated the level treadmill, then when the asshole dies, he can simply come back. I'm not saying there isn't a right way to implement permadeath; however, I don't think it's the be-all end-all solution.

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netflow    150
Well being a 'stupid player killer' I can tell you this.. We definitely trust our own kind and will gladly form up to stand against a larger force(although it is a LOT of fun to try to take them all on single handedly).

Perma-death is perhaps the single worst idea you can implement into a game.. You have to look at why anyone continues to play one of these games for months on end and pays a set fee every month.
IT is because they are building something, whether it be a character or a treasure horde or whatever, and they grow attached to whatever it is they are building.
Now if they die and that death is permanent you can bet than at least 50% of your players will cancel their subscriptions especially if they just lost a high level character, why bother starting over again if you are just going to die again and have to start over once again..
The thing with player killers is that eventually every game will get boring.. Whether it is after 2 months or 2 years eventually you will have done everthing there is to to and seen everything there is to see.. Now if you have built up this UBER character and really enjoy the game then it is hard to quit. The only thing left to do is to go and PVP and PK.. Being the evil bad guy is about the most fun I have ever had in any game. And I am a nice passive guy in real life who lives in a nice house donates lots of charity, recycles and picks up trash when I see it on the street.. But the rush that you get by sneaking up behind someone and putting a virtual bullet in the back of their head is unparralled. Or taking on a group of 3 people with gorilla tactics and winning.
Nothing beats it, and it will be what keeps the experienced players who have been playing for a long period of time paying that monthly bill every month.

So instead of figuring out a genius way to do away with the assholes or penalize them for being assholes, why don't you make a system where they can be assholes to their hearts content without completely disrupting the lives of everyone else..
As hard and impossible as it sounds there is a solution, and it sure as hell isn't permadeath. The only thing that will solve will be your bandwidth bill as no one will be playing your game for very long

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Son of Cain    480
I think there's not an ideal solution to this problem, but there are ways to make this a less pressing issue.

For example, you could send High level players to another plan, separating their goals from mid-level gamers... Or, if you have a very well designed society, you can delegate good players some social positions, based on their performance - let bad guys build a thieves'guild, and good guys lead some cities' army or royal guard or whatever...

In my opinion there will always be assholes, you can't avoid them, but they are players and they have their urges. You must attend your players, give them what they want without corrupting your world. If I were in your skin, I would concentrate on the story and give players a mean to shape the world's history and patterns.

Cya

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Alex    122
One thing you should definitely look at is making the player's options known to them. In most MMORPGs I have played, there are more side-quests, fun episodes, and activities to take part than I'd ever imagine. The simple problem is, to access a huge and fun quest, you may very wel have to talk to the most inconspicuous looking NPC in the most remote corner of a town you rarely enter.

These things are cool when/if you find them, but it is often a chore to find these things, regardless of whether you know about them or not. And often an even greater contributor to the problem is simply not knowing that such an option is available.

MMORPGs are, in a word, MASSIVE. And something that none (IMO) have done right to date is pacing the massive amount of information the player is to learn. They either plop you in the middle of an enormous world not knowing how to do anything even as basic as using the interface to attack a wimpy blob, OR they try and teach you everything at the beginning before you are even close to being able to use most of the knowledge. If there was a system in place that would teach you parts of the game as they became relevant, and gave hints of quests that could be done, or what regions would be good to explore, etc.

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Quote:
Original post by Telastyn
I like MMORPGs without people...


I totally agree. I am currently working on a science-fiction RPG, and I recently decided to make it single-player only. The reason is because multiplayer (let alone "massive" multiplayer) requires to many concessions to gameplay.

One of the biggest problems with multiplayer games is the inability to change the speed of time. I hated having to sit down for five minutes "resting" in EQ, just to raise my health back up so I can go back to fighting squirrels. In Morrowind, for example, the process of resting/healing/sleeping is simply a screen fade out, and eight hours have magically passed. I was able to spend the extra five minutes of my life doing more productive things (or having more fun in combat, dialog, etc.).

The time problem also affects travel through the game world. If I want a reasonably realistic game world, I won't want cities/planets to be 10 seconds apart. Huge gameworlds, like in Daggerfall, would be impossible in a MMORPG because players would not want to spend hours traveling to where they want to go. Single-player games do not have this problem, as they can merely show a little cutscene or an Indiana Jones-style red line on a map, and the player has arrived at his destination.

Multiplayer definitely has its benefits, and can be very rewarding. I may even try to work it into my next SF RPG (if I make one). For now, I want to work on entertaining one person at a time.

- Mike

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HART    121
Quote:
Original post by fierywater
I've thought about whether an MMORPG should have permadeath, but if our hypothetical asshole wants to be one, he still can be. If you've eliminated the level treadmill, then when the asshole dies, he can simply come back. I'm not saying there isn't a right way to implement permadeath; however, I don't think it's the be-all end-all solution.


here is the thing though. the grind solution i thought of, isnt an instant level up. you dont gain xp super fast or anything. it still takes time to build your character and if someone has spent a few weeks on there character, they are going to be careful about what they do and say to other players.

Quote:
Original post by netflow
You have to look at why anyone continues to play one of these games for months on end and pays a set fee every month.
IT is because they are building something, whether it be a character or a treasure horde or whatever, and they grow attached to whatever it is they are building.
Now if they die and that death is permanent you can bet than at least 50% of your players will cancel their subscriptions especially if they just lost a high level character, why bother starting over again if you are just going to die again and have to start over once again..


you have a very good point here. progressing is one of the main things people do in MMORPGs. i did a little thinking(not a lot), and i came up with this idea. what if people have to quest for theyre name at the beggining of the game. this quest takes awhile, not something most people can do in one day. after the quest you are allowed to create your name(this also might make a few people less likely to pick a dumb name). if during the course of the game you are killed by a player, you still have your name, you just loose all your skills. one of the purposes then in this game, would to be to make your name well known. you could either do this by being infamous or famous. on top of the name thing though, there will need to be much more content, goals to achieve, ways to interact with the world, im still trying to think that stuff up.

Quote:
original post by netflow
Being the evil bad guy is about the most fun I have ever had in any game. And I am a nice passive guy in real life who lives in a nice house donates lots of charity, recycles and picks up trash when I see it on the street.. But the rush that you get by sneaking up behind someone and putting a virtual bullet in the back of their head is unparralled. Or taking on a group of 3 people with gorilla tactics and winning.
Nothing beats it, and it will be what keeps the experienced players who have been playing for a long period of time paying that monthly bill every month.


i agree with you here. I have never made it to the highest level in an mmorpg. i get bored of just smashing things over and over. whats the point? but killing another player. thats fun. your actually effecting someone elses gameing experience, in a way that they dont want to be effected. i love getting those nasty PMs after killing some dood. and the reason i pick on people who dont like to be killed. is because THEY DONT LIKE TO BE KILLED!! sure ive killed player killers like myself before. but they dont get that pissed, because the only reason they are playing, is to get into fights. so no one bothers being a good guy, because a little oposition will just make the assholles even happier. but in a game with permadeath, i think you will find people much more willing to be the hero. because they can actually effect people. they can make theyre city a safer place. i think this in itself adds a whole lot of fun content for people.

Quote:
original post by netflow
So instead of figuring out a genius way to do away with the assholes or penalize them for being assholes, why don't you make a system where they can be assholes to their hearts content without completely disrupting the lives of everyone else..


permadeath doesnt penalize just assholes, anyone can die. it just gives them something to actually be afraid of. it kind of adds to the rush of battle too though. being an asshole is fun, because you interupt someones game, and you make people pissed off. if you made it so that assholes didnt disrupt people, they would quit the game. an example of this is City of Heroes. that game has no PvP, thus, you cant be an asshole, thus, i quit the game. yes, city of villians is comming out. but the COH comunity is all crying and saying that they dont want to PvP and if they add PvP they cant add extra content just for PvPers. WHAT!?!? PvP is content, are you people insane?? anyway sorry about bringing that up.

Quote:
original post by son of cain
If I were in your skin, I would concentrate on the story and give players a mean to shape the world's history and patterns.


yes, this is one of my main goals to making this a fun game. creating a world that the player can shape. player towns and colonys will be a must. and hopefully it will be a politically charged game.

Quote:
original post by alex
One thing you should definitely look at is making the player's options known to them. In most MMORPGs I have played, there are more side-quests, fun episodes, and activities to take part than I'd ever imagine. The simple problem is, to access a huge and fun quest, you may very wel have to talk to the most inconspicuous looking NPC in the most remote corner of a town you rarely enter.


i know what your talking about. i think in my game i would like to make it like chess. its not too hard to learn. but as you really get into the game, countless new strategies and option are opened up to you. and not all of them are explained in detail in the manual or with ingame tips. this creates a world simple for newbies to get into. but complex enough to keep people exploring in the later stages.

Quote:
original post by doctorsixstring
The time problem also affects travel through the game world. If I want a reasonably realistic game world, I won't want cities/planets to be 10 seconds apart. Huge gameworlds, like in Daggerfall, would be impossible in a MMORPG because players would not want to spend hours traveling to where they want to go. Single-player games do not have this problem, as they can merely show a little cutscene or an Indiana Jones-style red line on a map, and the player has arrived at his destination.


it will take time to travel in this game. but i want to make it fun and exciting at the same time. instead of just hit auto run and go get a snack. raiding parties and resource mines are just a couple reasons you will want to keep your eyes open along the way.



all in all this is an expiriment. i dont plan on finishing the gameplay elements and backstory for at least a year. and im just starting to learn C++ so that when i want to start building this game i will have some knowledge. permadeath may or may not work, who knows, it may be a disaster. but i think that it is a step forward for MMORPGs. so thankyou for all of your responses and critisisms keep um comming.

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Telastyn    3777
PKer's do not add anything to a game.

They cause people to not have fun, and leave the game to play one that is fun. The PKer's then leave as they have no targets. A MMORPG without a playerbase is a *failure*.

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HART    121
Quote:
Original post by Telastyn
PKer's do not add anything to a game.

They cause people to not have fun, and leave the game to play one that is fun. The PKer's then leave as they have no targets. A MMORPG without a playerbase is a *failure*.


so, what are you saying by this? are you agreeing with a player installed police system, or do you just want no PvP, because a game with no PvP in my opinion, is not a fun game. a game with no PKers(player killers) is just a big chatroom with cool grafics and everyone is grinding away for the highest level so that when they get there they can realize that there is really no point !?!?!?

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Maega    707
If you want an idea of a fun RPG, take a look at Kingdom of Drakkar.

This game has been around in one form or another for about 15 years.

Features include:

Skill system. Example: You want to be good good with an axe. You don't just equip the axe and magically become proficient at it like other RPGs.. you have to fight and kill to get better with your chosen weapon.

Lairs: Lair monsters = very much fun. There is nothing like getting a group of friends together to do battle with a huge dangerous dragon, a rouge knight, blood sucking vampires, or a monsterous Yeti.

Big worlds: One needs places many places to visit. Imagine entering a village that is attacked at random by hordes of monsters, or a village of serene martial artists, or even a ransacked town with a bandit lurking around.

Mystery: Most important thing in an RPG. Do not give your players a map when they start the game showing where everything is. Drakkar still has places that have not been discovered, and the development team will not tell you where these places are.

My point is: Modern online RPGs have lost these great features and have just turned into nothing but a race to the max level. There is little variety.

Plan wisely. I'd love to see a new online RPG done in this style.

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Telastyn    3777
Quote:
Original post by HART
Quote:
Original post by Telastyn
PKer's do not add anything to a game.

They cause people to not have fun, and leave the game to play one that is fun. The PKer's then leave as they have no targets. A MMORPG without a playerbase is a *failure*.


so, what are you saying by this? are you agreeing with a player installed police system, or do you just want no PvP, because a game with no PvP in my opinion, is not a fun game. a game with no PKers(player killers) is just a big chatroom with cool grafics and everyone is grinding away for the highest level so that when they get there they can realize that there is really no point !?!?!?


It's a game, the point is to have fun.

If people enjoy grinding away [MMORPG subscriptions say yes] and big chat rooms [IRC activity say yes] then mission accomplished. Personally, PvP in a persistant world is the antithesis of fun. You disagree. *shrug*

On a slightly more analytical tangent...

There's a fairly famous article about MUDs by Richard Bartle. [diamonds, clubs, hearts, spades ?] [achiever, socializer, explorer, killer ?] [google]

The game you suggest seems to only cater to killers. Killers griefing others, killers "policing" griefers. Nothing for the rest.



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